My takeaway was that okc on defense is what championship defense looks like. And when we play again at really good defenses, we can’t out offense them. And our own defense is far far from championship level. Last years Pacers went pretty far being good on one side of the ball. But it is not my ambition to be last years Pacers.
I too missed this game because of work, but when I checked in around H/T I wasn’t surprised. Us Knicks fans have been drinking the kool aid a little too much. We have been caught up in the media hype over the summer and started thinking this team was ready to compete for a championship this season. We’re NOT. Teams like OKC, the Cavs, Celtics have been playing together for a few years and have only added a few guys to help fill out the roster. The Knicks flipped last season’s team for a few main guys and need to learn how to play with each other. Our bench was a huge part of our success last season. Now we really miss guys like Donte coming in and giving us a spark of instant offense and hard nose defense. So now we have to pump the brakes on the idea that we are in a position to make a deep run and concentrate on not falling out of the top 6 in the East, because quietly teams like Detroit, Chicago, Indiana, Atlanta and Miami are making their way up in the standings.
I’ve watched the Knicks since the 1960-61 season. I bleed orange and blue. Attending last nights game any basketball fan couldn’t help but admire the Thunder. The ball moved quickly and efficiently, all in an effortless pursuit to find the open man. When they did they buried the shot. Seems I remember Red Holzman preaching that. My wife commented a few times that it appeared OKC was playing with an extra man because either at the 3 point line or the back door, someone was open. Actually they do play with an extra man on the court, confidence. Complete confidence in their shot.
Prior to the game, on Garden Vision, Wally Szczerbiak in giving his keys to the game stressed that when the Knicks get an opportunity to shoot, take the shot and take it without hesitation. That lasted for about 3 minutes. Then we lost our confidence, hesitated, and began playing hot potato with the ball until we got into shot clock purgatory. How many last second heaves and shot clock violations did we have.
You are correct, this is some internal flaw we’re dealing with. We have a terrific starting five, but we appear to be so fragile at time from a confidence standpoint. You can see it in Josh Hart. He played his heart out last night, as usual. No one grittier in the league. However he often stands open at the three point line, ball in hand but not quite in shooting position. You can see his internal debate, should I, maybe I’ll pass. Maybe Mikail will too. It becomes infectious. They can be very fragile can’t they
Jon, Your sentiments about last night are spot on & Josh's comments are very disturbing. Watching the Pre-Game, Breen asked Clyde how JB should come out & handle the game. Clyde responded by saying to let the game come to him, that JB will know how to respond once he saw the rhythm of the game. Now, I preface this by saying I'm not blaming JB for last night, but how he started the game set forth the rest of the night. He came out in Melo-Iso mode, not looking to set up his teammates, not establishing any sort of rhythm & he wasn't successful. The only thing that kept the game tight early, was OKC was also missing their shots. The team looked lost on the court & the team that made crisp passes & kept the ball moving on the court in past games, was nowhere to be found. The lack of 3 point shooting has become an epidemic (4-31, .129 % last night) .Wingstop was totally absent last night & their defensive prowess was nowhere to be found! Nice to see that Thibs gave Huk some minutes, but how is it in this game, he can only give Kolek, the kid we've all been calling for, a total of 2 minutes? We didn't need to see Payne shooting every time he got the ball! (11 shots in 15 minutes. His arms must be tired!) I thought opening night would be the worst loss of the season, but last night far surpassed that! For a game that all of us were so looking forward to, this loss is going to hurt for a long time!
I think we all have to take a deep breath and realize this is a long season and this team is just starting their climb up the mountain. For most teams it takes years for it to finally click, so for us to get this up in arms over a bad game in January after only 40 games played I think is a tad much. Hell look even last year's Celtics team who was great at this time last yr had a huge matchup against the second seeded Bucks and lost by 30, it happens. I trust this organization and roster to figure it out. And last thing IF the Knicks come out against the Bucks and win big do we change our tune? Again it's a long season and thankfully we are good enough to be a top 3/4 seed in east and that means we have another 40 or so games to continue to learn before the postseason starts.
💯Robbie. This is the right attitude. The simple fact is that the Knicks have improved every year in the Rose era and we are closer to winning a championship now than we have been this century. We have an outstanding starting 5, and we need to do what we it takes to build around that core and improve our bench. We may not make it past the second round again because, at least right now, CLE and BOS are better than we are. It doesn’t mean there hasn’t been significant progress. Losing sucks, but losses, including blowout losses, are part of a season, and they happened to the Ewing-Oakley-Mason Knicks in 94 and the Reed-DeBusschere-Frazier Knicks in 73. This too shall pass.
Every Thibs team of any greatness, as well as a matter of fact, any Knicks team of any greatness was built on one major philosophy. And that is, protect the paint at all costs. And the second brick in that Thibs/“Knicks of old” wall is hellacious man-on-man defense from 1 to 5.
This team has neither. To be fair, much of the NBA has moved to focusing on shooting the three as the key to all winning. And who knows, maybe that is the present and future of the NBA.
But the Thibs/“Knicks of old” teams that had the most success and were the most fun to watch (at least to me) featured those two “bricks.” That’s not this Knick team. At least not now.
I’ll hope, probably naively, that the ‘tired legs’ narrative isn’t used for what we’ve seen lately, and most specifically last night. The Knicks’ defense has not been anywhere near championship caliber since the start of the season, and while it rebounded somewhat in December, they were playing inferior competition. Nor do I think the shooting slumps are attributable to tired legs. Remember all the concerns about Mikal’s 3-point shooting coming out of the preseason? I don’t think he was tired then. (I’d also point to the mpg of the Kings starters which is quite comparable to the Knicks - they’ve won six in a row, including routing the Celtics in Boston last night).
I think one problem in addition to the defense is they simply don’t have enough good players, players who can provide a spark and give the opponent something to think about. The bench is one of the worst in the league. Deuce is the only real threat and if his shot isn’t falling even he doesn’t give you much as he rarely beats anyone off the dribble. As has been said, the team probably needs a couple of transaction cycles to fortify its roster. In the meantime, it’s probably best to recalibrate expectations.
This is the second time Josh Hart talked about how people need to play together, bring energy and not have egos, etc. I’m not sure who he is referring to. Everyone appears to be playing “the right way”, so I’m curious who he’s referring to. Offensively, Bridges is the only one who I can say takes some “bad shots”, but I don’t think that’s what he’s talking about. Brunson makes some bad decisions here and there, but again, I don’t think that’s it. Genuinely curious what he’s talking about
The Fire Thibs mantra, minutes police, Anunoby/Mikal detractors, and various rookie “hives” were in full force last night online. I was thrilled that I missed the game due to a hospital shift. Because when I whipped out my nba app around 7:30 local time to check the score, I was disgusted and disheartened equally by the score with less than a minute left in first half.
Even more disgusted when I checked again with 4:30 in the 3rd to see a 24 point deficit.
And I’m speechless. I don’t think there’s one shred of proof to consider firing the coach. But that’s what I saw a lot of, and then minutes and Kolek>Payne, Hukporti>every big not named KAT. But I keep coming back to that same word…disheartened. Even my Pacers friends (I live in Indiana) sent texts asking what was up. It’s just so deflating to lose by so much and so soundly on your own floor.
I’m at a loss and I’m tired, since it’s 4:15 in the Midwest. I hope there’s a repeat of the last Bucks and Knicks game and that we go on another little streak, even if it’s just a few Ws in a row, rather than 9.
Lots of amazing and smart comments on yesterday’s posts. After reading everyone’s thoughts it is apparent, at least me, that we are in year one of what will be 2-3 year process of attempting to get to the finals. The average age of the core is about 29 years old so focusing on building for the next 2 or 3 is not so bad.
It’s just that most of us (certainly me) felt we were title contenders now, but we are not.
The Knicks need to essentially build a bench from scratch (Deuce should be the 7th or 8th man not the 6th) and it sounds funny but they need to find an iHart play-alike and a Dante play-alike. The major obstacle to find those players is that the team has few assets of any real quality unless Mitch can prove he can get healthy and stay healthy. And frankly, that’s a long shot as it belies his career.
So for my sanity, I am going to re-adjust my expectations. Every win is a good win. It doesn’t matter if it’s not a good team. If we can get home court for the first round, win that and give whoever they meet in the second round, a run for their money, I’ll take it.
Then next year, start the process of finding a bench. And I take great solace in knowing Jonathan, and all of you, will be on this path with the Knicks and me.
The last couple of weeks have shown how much the loss of Donte hurts. KAT has been phenomenal, and you do the trade even in hindsight because you are more likely to find another Donte than you are another KAT, but it has been glaring how much they need the additional shooting/shot creation/defensive intensity off the bench.
That’s what they need to be looking for in future transactions, I don’t know how realistic it is that someone will come available at the deadline, but looking ahead since the core of this roster is locked in for the next few years - a bench wing is target 1A with the taxpayer mid level this summer in free agency.
I know it probably couldn’t have happened because they needed every dollar to make the KAT trade work, but they really could’ve used a ready to play rookie like Ryan Dunn rather than a project like Dadiet. Maybe in the long run Dadiet is the better player, and he was willing to take 80% slot, but Dunn would have been able to solve some of the minutes issues they are having with Bridges/Hart/OG.
Reality Bites: If O.G. and Bridges play like they did last night against OKC then the Knicks's hope for a deep playoff run is a fantasy. The cost of OG's contract and draft choice giveaways to attain Bridges, as well as Robinson's uncertain health status and the League's Apron strings, impairs the team's ability to make a meaningful mid-season trade. The loss of Hartenstein adds nostalgic suffering to the current bench woes, notwithstanding the addition of KAT to the starting five. I hope I am being unduly pessimistic, but last night's performance was truly dismal.
I am not sure what Thibs and Brunson were thinking with the game plan last night, but the poor shooting and 7 assists in the first half was a failure of preparation. They need to go back the drawing board and develop an approach that leverages the skills of a very talented offensive lineup.
The Knicks offense was flat out pathetic in the first half. Both teams came out cold, but OKC soon figured it out while the Knicks clicked as a team on offense or defense. We know OKC an excellent defensive team and we all saw the goose eggs for both OG and Bridges in the first half, but why?
The story for me was an ineffective game plan that featured Brunson in isolation for a significant part of the first quarter. Yes, he scored something like 9 of the first 11 points, but he failed to get his teammates going. If this team is going to be successful we need Brunson to be a floor general and get KAT, OG and Bridges into the flow of the offense (Hart creates his own opportunities and was exceptional last night). Assists are often a good barometer of team play and boy did it show last night.
I am hopeful we will see a different approach against the Bucks on Sunday.
Sobering piece . Look for me this is not a championship team . If you look at OKC they have an MVP level player , an identity , a coach that trusts his player’s ,unlimited assets to build off just a scary team that is going to be around for a while . FO made a commitment to Thibs so they have to work with him to find players he trusts to build out a bench . Tommy Beer had a post that the Knicks among the “contenders “ are the only team where all 5 players are avg more than 34 mpg , Cleveland had 0 ,OKC 1 , Boston 3 . They have to figure something out , call GS see if you can get Gui Santos for a second rounder find some guys that this coach will trust and play ! Hart is the soul of this team whatever he is talking about must be addressed , maybe Bridges is banged up and should sit out but is concerned about his game streak . Brunson seems off and should maybe sit out to get right but maybe is concerned about making all-nba something is going on . They lost the last 2 years against the lower seeded team so maybe just try to focus on finishing top 6 and not try to win every game at all costs . Lot of stuff needs to be sorted out .
My takeaway was that okc on defense is what championship defense looks like. And when we play again at really good defenses, we can’t out offense them. And our own defense is far far from championship level. Last years Pacers went pretty far being good on one side of the ball. But it is not my ambition to be last years Pacers.
I too missed this game because of work, but when I checked in around H/T I wasn’t surprised. Us Knicks fans have been drinking the kool aid a little too much. We have been caught up in the media hype over the summer and started thinking this team was ready to compete for a championship this season. We’re NOT. Teams like OKC, the Cavs, Celtics have been playing together for a few years and have only added a few guys to help fill out the roster. The Knicks flipped last season’s team for a few main guys and need to learn how to play with each other. Our bench was a huge part of our success last season. Now we really miss guys like Donte coming in and giving us a spark of instant offense and hard nose defense. So now we have to pump the brakes on the idea that we are in a position to make a deep run and concentrate on not falling out of the top 6 in the East, because quietly teams like Detroit, Chicago, Indiana, Atlanta and Miami are making their way up in the standings.
I’ve watched the Knicks since the 1960-61 season. I bleed orange and blue. Attending last nights game any basketball fan couldn’t help but admire the Thunder. The ball moved quickly and efficiently, all in an effortless pursuit to find the open man. When they did they buried the shot. Seems I remember Red Holzman preaching that. My wife commented a few times that it appeared OKC was playing with an extra man because either at the 3 point line or the back door, someone was open. Actually they do play with an extra man on the court, confidence. Complete confidence in their shot.
Prior to the game, on Garden Vision, Wally Szczerbiak in giving his keys to the game stressed that when the Knicks get an opportunity to shoot, take the shot and take it without hesitation. That lasted for about 3 minutes. Then we lost our confidence, hesitated, and began playing hot potato with the ball until we got into shot clock purgatory. How many last second heaves and shot clock violations did we have.
You are correct, this is some internal flaw we’re dealing with. We have a terrific starting five, but we appear to be so fragile at time from a confidence standpoint. You can see it in Josh Hart. He played his heart out last night, as usual. No one grittier in the league. However he often stands open at the three point line, ball in hand but not quite in shooting position. You can see his internal debate, should I, maybe I’ll pass. Maybe Mikail will too. It becomes infectious. They can be very fragile can’t they
Jon, Your sentiments about last night are spot on & Josh's comments are very disturbing. Watching the Pre-Game, Breen asked Clyde how JB should come out & handle the game. Clyde responded by saying to let the game come to him, that JB will know how to respond once he saw the rhythm of the game. Now, I preface this by saying I'm not blaming JB for last night, but how he started the game set forth the rest of the night. He came out in Melo-Iso mode, not looking to set up his teammates, not establishing any sort of rhythm & he wasn't successful. The only thing that kept the game tight early, was OKC was also missing their shots. The team looked lost on the court & the team that made crisp passes & kept the ball moving on the court in past games, was nowhere to be found. The lack of 3 point shooting has become an epidemic (4-31, .129 % last night) .Wingstop was totally absent last night & their defensive prowess was nowhere to be found! Nice to see that Thibs gave Huk some minutes, but how is it in this game, he can only give Kolek, the kid we've all been calling for, a total of 2 minutes? We didn't need to see Payne shooting every time he got the ball! (11 shots in 15 minutes. His arms must be tired!) I thought opening night would be the worst loss of the season, but last night far surpassed that! For a game that all of us were so looking forward to, this loss is going to hurt for a long time!
I think we all have to take a deep breath and realize this is a long season and this team is just starting their climb up the mountain. For most teams it takes years for it to finally click, so for us to get this up in arms over a bad game in January after only 40 games played I think is a tad much. Hell look even last year's Celtics team who was great at this time last yr had a huge matchup against the second seeded Bucks and lost by 30, it happens. I trust this organization and roster to figure it out. And last thing IF the Knicks come out against the Bucks and win big do we change our tune? Again it's a long season and thankfully we are good enough to be a top 3/4 seed in east and that means we have another 40 or so games to continue to learn before the postseason starts.
💯Robbie. This is the right attitude. The simple fact is that the Knicks have improved every year in the Rose era and we are closer to winning a championship now than we have been this century. We have an outstanding starting 5, and we need to do what we it takes to build around that core and improve our bench. We may not make it past the second round again because, at least right now, CLE and BOS are better than we are. It doesn’t mean there hasn’t been significant progress. Losing sucks, but losses, including blowout losses, are part of a season, and they happened to the Ewing-Oakley-Mason Knicks in 94 and the Reed-DeBusschere-Frazier Knicks in 73. This too shall pass.
Every Thibs team of any greatness, as well as a matter of fact, any Knicks team of any greatness was built on one major philosophy. And that is, protect the paint at all costs. And the second brick in that Thibs/“Knicks of old” wall is hellacious man-on-man defense from 1 to 5.
This team has neither. To be fair, much of the NBA has moved to focusing on shooting the three as the key to all winning. And who knows, maybe that is the present and future of the NBA.
But the Thibs/“Knicks of old” teams that had the most success and were the most fun to watch (at least to me) featured those two “bricks.” That’s not this Knick team. At least not now.
I’ll hope, probably naively, that the ‘tired legs’ narrative isn’t used for what we’ve seen lately, and most specifically last night. The Knicks’ defense has not been anywhere near championship caliber since the start of the season, and while it rebounded somewhat in December, they were playing inferior competition. Nor do I think the shooting slumps are attributable to tired legs. Remember all the concerns about Mikal’s 3-point shooting coming out of the preseason? I don’t think he was tired then. (I’d also point to the mpg of the Kings starters which is quite comparable to the Knicks - they’ve won six in a row, including routing the Celtics in Boston last night).
I think one problem in addition to the defense is they simply don’t have enough good players, players who can provide a spark and give the opponent something to think about. The bench is one of the worst in the league. Deuce is the only real threat and if his shot isn’t falling even he doesn’t give you much as he rarely beats anyone off the dribble. As has been said, the team probably needs a couple of transaction cycles to fortify its roster. In the meantime, it’s probably best to recalibrate expectations.
This is the second time Josh Hart talked about how people need to play together, bring energy and not have egos, etc. I’m not sure who he is referring to. Everyone appears to be playing “the right way”, so I’m curious who he’s referring to. Offensively, Bridges is the only one who I can say takes some “bad shots”, but I don’t think that’s what he’s talking about. Brunson makes some bad decisions here and there, but again, I don’t think that’s it. Genuinely curious what he’s talking about
Gotta be Brunson
Who is it that Josh Hart thinks is running their own agenda(s) on the court?
The Fire Thibs mantra, minutes police, Anunoby/Mikal detractors, and various rookie “hives” were in full force last night online. I was thrilled that I missed the game due to a hospital shift. Because when I whipped out my nba app around 7:30 local time to check the score, I was disgusted and disheartened equally by the score with less than a minute left in first half.
Even more disgusted when I checked again with 4:30 in the 3rd to see a 24 point deficit.
And I’m speechless. I don’t think there’s one shred of proof to consider firing the coach. But that’s what I saw a lot of, and then minutes and Kolek>Payne, Hukporti>every big not named KAT. But I keep coming back to that same word…disheartened. Even my Pacers friends (I live in Indiana) sent texts asking what was up. It’s just so deflating to lose by so much and so soundly on your own floor.
I’m at a loss and I’m tired, since it’s 4:15 in the Midwest. I hope there’s a repeat of the last Bucks and Knicks game and that we go on another little streak, even if it’s just a few Ws in a row, rather than 9.
I don’t know…that’s it. I don’t know.
Lots of amazing and smart comments on yesterday’s posts. After reading everyone’s thoughts it is apparent, at least me, that we are in year one of what will be 2-3 year process of attempting to get to the finals. The average age of the core is about 29 years old so focusing on building for the next 2 or 3 is not so bad.
It’s just that most of us (certainly me) felt we were title contenders now, but we are not.
The Knicks need to essentially build a bench from scratch (Deuce should be the 7th or 8th man not the 6th) and it sounds funny but they need to find an iHart play-alike and a Dante play-alike. The major obstacle to find those players is that the team has few assets of any real quality unless Mitch can prove he can get healthy and stay healthy. And frankly, that’s a long shot as it belies his career.
So for my sanity, I am going to re-adjust my expectations. Every win is a good win. It doesn’t matter if it’s not a good team. If we can get home court for the first round, win that and give whoever they meet in the second round, a run for their money, I’ll take it.
Then next year, start the process of finding a bench. And I take great solace in knowing Jonathan, and all of you, will be on this path with the Knicks and me.
The last couple of weeks have shown how much the loss of Donte hurts. KAT has been phenomenal, and you do the trade even in hindsight because you are more likely to find another Donte than you are another KAT, but it has been glaring how much they need the additional shooting/shot creation/defensive intensity off the bench.
That’s what they need to be looking for in future transactions, I don’t know how realistic it is that someone will come available at the deadline, but looking ahead since the core of this roster is locked in for the next few years - a bench wing is target 1A with the taxpayer mid level this summer in free agency.
I know it probably couldn’t have happened because they needed every dollar to make the KAT trade work, but they really could’ve used a ready to play rookie like Ryan Dunn rather than a project like Dadiet. Maybe in the long run Dadiet is the better player, and he was willing to take 80% slot, but Dunn would have been able to solve some of the minutes issues they are having with Bridges/Hart/OG.
Reality Bites: If O.G. and Bridges play like they did last night against OKC then the Knicks's hope for a deep playoff run is a fantasy. The cost of OG's contract and draft choice giveaways to attain Bridges, as well as Robinson's uncertain health status and the League's Apron strings, impairs the team's ability to make a meaningful mid-season trade. The loss of Hartenstein adds nostalgic suffering to the current bench woes, notwithstanding the addition of KAT to the starting five. I hope I am being unduly pessimistic, but last night's performance was truly dismal.
Rough night. Tough to watch.
I am not sure what Thibs and Brunson were thinking with the game plan last night, but the poor shooting and 7 assists in the first half was a failure of preparation. They need to go back the drawing board and develop an approach that leverages the skills of a very talented offensive lineup.
The Knicks offense was flat out pathetic in the first half. Both teams came out cold, but OKC soon figured it out while the Knicks clicked as a team on offense or defense. We know OKC an excellent defensive team and we all saw the goose eggs for both OG and Bridges in the first half, but why?
The story for me was an ineffective game plan that featured Brunson in isolation for a significant part of the first quarter. Yes, he scored something like 9 of the first 11 points, but he failed to get his teammates going. If this team is going to be successful we need Brunson to be a floor general and get KAT, OG and Bridges into the flow of the offense (Hart creates his own opportunities and was exceptional last night). Assists are often a good barometer of team play and boy did it show last night.
I am hopeful we will see a different approach against the Bucks on Sunday.
Sobering piece . Look for me this is not a championship team . If you look at OKC they have an MVP level player , an identity , a coach that trusts his player’s ,unlimited assets to build off just a scary team that is going to be around for a while . FO made a commitment to Thibs so they have to work with him to find players he trusts to build out a bench . Tommy Beer had a post that the Knicks among the “contenders “ are the only team where all 5 players are avg more than 34 mpg , Cleveland had 0 ,OKC 1 , Boston 3 . They have to figure something out , call GS see if you can get Gui Santos for a second rounder find some guys that this coach will trust and play ! Hart is the soul of this team whatever he is talking about must be addressed , maybe Bridges is banged up and should sit out but is concerned about his game streak . Brunson seems off and should maybe sit out to get right but maybe is concerned about making all-nba something is going on . They lost the last 2 years against the lower seeded team so maybe just try to focus on finishing top 6 and not try to win every game at all costs . Lot of stuff needs to be sorted out .