I thought immediately of Randle ... please remember you are a professional NBA basketball player on a mission to win, every moment of a game when you are on the court with your team:
“To forget one's purpose is the commonest form of stupidity.”
It's been a long time coming... with a few brief shining interludes.Red to Riles to JVG and now, Thibs' team.To steal the military come on, I'm hoping they can: Be all they can be. Playing hard. Playing smart. Sharing the ball. Crashing the boards. "D" ing up their men. Helping [as appropriate]. No easy layups [as allowed by current rules]. Few open 3s. If they show up every night and avoid the injury jinx, they'll be fine. I can assure the esteemed writer, the KFS,and my fellow fans-----in those distant Championship seasons, we didn't give a fuck about stars [though the Knicks had some], we lived and died by TEAM and teamwork. They'll be struggles, but that's life. You have to expect them, The mark of a good team is overcoming them. TEAM! Give me that over you Show Biz star driven glitz anyday! That's NY's true legacy.
Thanks,
[PS Hopefully their troll owner is so caught up with his shiny new toy in Vegas that he'll leave basketball to his Front Office.]
Agree its all about the team, and who knows, maybe they find a way to win it all without the glitzy centerpiece. If nothing else, I'm excited to see them attack the challenge.
Another great piece looking forward to season full of great content. Looking at this season as we are in year 5 of 5 year rebuilding project . Know people are worried about being stuck in middle but don’t think that’s so bad , team has went through decades of mismanagement think a few years of 45-50 years would not be worst thing in the world . Biggest thing they need to use their draft picks going forward 2 of the best players in the world are mid first round and second round picks . Stay the course enjoy the young kids development and if they are able to get a guy like Embid great , if not will not be worst thing in the world with his injury history .
Really great piece to kick off the season! ...and man that “rooting for a bunch of strangers that affect our emotional state of mind” is next level shit...and entirely accurate. Agree that success this season will not be measured in Wins and Losses. Success will be a fun team to watch that competes night in and night out. They will play for each other and make their noted depth an advantage that other teams don’t have. This will lead to a better product and the idea that they are a desirable location for stars. I think even if Brunson doesn’t shine quite as bright (I believe he will) or the team doesn’t go further this can still be a success. Last, my priority what to watch for is two (yep, I’m getting greedy) or more of RJ, IQ, Mitch or Grimes showing themselves to be legit players. Not something that if you squint a certain way and tilt your head to the right angle, they look good...but legit good for all to agree. That would be a big win!
I think those are the correct 4, although someone else brought up Mitch as their "leap" candidate and I was skeptical. I guess I kind of feel like he is what he is at this point? I'd love to be wrong. In any case, thanks for the thoughts and the kind words as always. Looking forward to reading more of them throughout the season!
The leap for Mitch is setting harder screens and adding some small moves to the basket after an offensive rebound. Not enough to just be an alley oop dunker and kick the rebound back out guy 100% off the time.
"Whether they are on the high or low end of the league’s juicy middle is debatable; that they are squarely in NBA purgatory - for the moment at least - is not."
This is the conclusion I came to watching the FIBA series this summer. As much as I love Brunson and this version of the Knicks, there are multiple teams of veteran superstars above them, and teams with rapidly ascending young talent below them that are going to squeeze them squarely in the upper middle (at best). I question the star trade route, because of the cost of these trades in terms of current talent (the Mitchell trade is an example of a crazy price for a guy who does not guarantee anything). The Knicks win more because of the sum of the parts than do to individual brilliance. Take that away for a star trade and I can see them being less successful despite the superstar presence.
I would rather see the Knicks use the draft capital to be aggressive in the draft. I am sure a lot will disagree.
This is why I was pushing for them to move up to draft Jaden Ivey (before they got Brunson). FWIW, I don't think there's a chance in hell they do this. If anything, if Embiid doesn't happen, maybe they make a play for a high pedigree young player whose team has some modicum of doubt. Jalen Green would have fit this definition this summer (I say because he was reported as not being untouchable earlier in the summer).
I agree they are committed to the star route. I think it was the play they had to make to placate the [idiotic] owner. That said, I have a tough time seeing the trade that gets them into serious and continuous finals consideration. I would love to see a trade for a high pedigree young player.
Hope you had a good summer. Between the move and trying to create content in the barren times is a lot.
Thanks for those final words Peter. It was...a lot lol. But I did rest a bit.
As for the owner comment, I cannot agree enough. Now, in fairness, it may work out. I'm hopeful. But the move was to go into a prolonged tank. And Dolan was never signing up for that. Given those perameters, leon has done about as well as he could have.
Damn man, THANK YOU. It was honestly a very last minute thing and I was flying by the seat of my pants. I knew I had a thing to say but I didn't really know how I wanted to say it. Thank you for making me think it was OK!
I'm a little worried we could see a bit of a repeat of 21-22 this year. We outplayed expectations last year, but then didn't really make moves to improve to the next level. As you noted, Jon, there is a large fluctuation in season to season performance of teams outside the big 3 teams anchored by the MVPs. I worry the Knicks plan to tread water may bite them in the butt. We shall see. Hopefully Grimes and RJ and IQ can make enough improvements to their game to keep us on the upswing...
But at some point we'll have to stop letting perfect be the enemy of the good. I'm okay with not trading for Jrue (though I'm pissed Boston got him). That said, I think they NEED to make a move for the first piece and try to retain enough flexibility to add another down the road. I worry there will be a regression and disappointment if they don't. The same logic Windy and Lowe applied to the Knicks potentially getting Jrue (he will improve the team, and help entice the next star) should be applied to the next move they make. Obviously being judicious about who the piece is and what the fit is (aka no Harden plz) is huge. But I think there is a such a thing as being too patient here and missing the boat. I think we took a big step back this week, purely because Milwaukee and Boston took huge steps forward. The NBA is a zero sum game - their gains are our loss, in one way or another. Say we get smoked by Boston and Milwaukee this season in the majority of our matchups - will Joel still look at NY as the place to make his big move?
Sean, I cannot agree more. In 21-22, we were using all the same enthusiastic statements about continuity and maturity and how those advantages will help the team continue to grow. Well, we all know how that worked out.
To me the x-factor is Grimes. He had his first full season last year as a starter. I'm excited to see where he might get to with conditioning and off-season growth. While I wouldn't put us as a front-runner in the race for the finals, we actually came reasonably close to the conference finals last year with Julius and JB hurting, IQ cooked and Grimes a bit gimpy. I know it seems crazy to think, but if you don't take that as an anomoly, then we aren't middle of the pack as a team. We are middle of the pack on paper. We are young, growing, a top defense and offense. How that happened without a 'superstar'...who knows? Maybe Julius and Brunson are superstars? Let's see if Grimes, IQ, RJ, Mitch and even Deuce can raise their games all 10% or so. Hartenstein was nice at the end too. It's exciting.
I think the major theme of the 2023-24 Knicks is that they are in the dreaded middle of the pack. Probably not good enough to win more than a round of the playoffs (maybe just making the playoffs will be a challenge?) And not bad enough to have a shot at a top 3 lottery pick.
And of course, we continue on the Rose Admin theme, “waiting for Godot.” All I’ve read for the past 3-4 years is the Knicks have a lot of young talent and a ton of moveable draft picks to go after the next “star.”
Well, many have passed us buy in those 3-4 years.
It’s one reason I was hoping for a Holiday deal. While it’s nice to dream about getting the next big star, I’d prefer continuing to build a top playoff contender while still waiting for that next star. If they were able to get Holiday, they probably would not be in the Milwaukee’s class but they’d have a punchers shot at Boston, Philadelphia and very possibly would be the favorites against anyone else in the division.
Keep hope alive. Yes, they've waited...but this was always going to be a process. They had a weaker asset base than any team in the league when Leon took over. Now? They're arguably the best positioned team in the NBA to make a star trade because of where they play and the assets they have.
Interesting point but I have a question for you Jonathan. Why do so many of the NBA literati say that the Nets are in the best position for the next superstar trade, not the Knicks? Now, I disagree with that take but I read it too often from writers and commentators I respect to simply dismiss it.
Because they have distant unprotected Suns picks, and one distant unrprotected Mavs pick. Those are the golden tickets of NBA trades, and THE asset(s) you want if you're trading a star, assuming someone isn't dumb enough to send you an SGA-caliber player after his rookie season.
Thanks JM, that makes sense. However, that means if the Knicks and Nets go after the same player (Embiid, cough, Embiid), the Knicks will probably lose. Unless of course, the lure of playing in MSG plays an outsized role.
How important is the (difficult-seeming) start of the season? With Fournier expiring and no contract large enough to ship out on its own, doesn’t the outgoing player package start to get a bit expensive past the trade deadline without any reason to expect a commensurate reduction in picks?
This was a really good one. I’ve been somewhat bothered by some of the optimism surrounding this team. It’s not bc they aren’t good it’s bc of how good you have to be to be “entrenched” and I don’t think we there yet. You did a good job showing how few teams are there. Unfortunately this means a step back is possible.
The depth gives stability and makes a big drop off much less likely. It also makes it harder for the rookie contract guys to jump from good rotation player to being seen as a “blue chip” prospect. That’s disappointing bc I want to watch a guy grow into that. It’s not the worst thing bc the team is stable, deep, and has the a lot of pretty nice trade chips.
Fortunately or unfortunately the future is tied to Randle, Thibs, and the possible star trade. They picked a path. I’m confident they won’t drive off the road. That’s good.
I don’t think it is unreasonable to expect both RJ and Grimes to improve, for Mitchell R to be better at foul shots, for a full season of Hart to help and for DeVincenzo to add value. So I am looking for the upper tier of the middle tier.
The two biggest upgrades we could hope for are RJ and Grimes. I have been a proponent of swapping out RJ for OG, which could happen if Toronto ever pulls the trigger on anything. But continued improvement from RJ could mean that we don’t need to do it or that it gets done for a cheaper price.
Similarly, I would like to add
Donovan Mitchell. The fact that he is expected to be a flight risk might mean Cleveland deals him sooner than he can hit free agency. Now I don’t ever expect Grimes to become as good as
D Mitch, but I can see him developing the ability to create his own shot and getting from an 11 point a game scorer to a 15-20 point scorer to add to his already outstanding
D. That’s a real trade chip of substance (almost the OG of off guards, but much cheaper). So if he gets there, I might forget entirely about
D Mitch or at least might be able to get him for less.
I like the idea of Embiid, a healthy Embiid, if over the course of the season he goes through his usual routine of nagging injuries that linger into the playoffs, do the Knicks still go all in for that ?
I'm not sure they'll have a choice. As Simon Roth once said, "This...is the business...we've chosen." Leon Rose picked the path 3.5 years ago. Embiid seems to be the one that is likeliest to shake loose. Thus, he's the guy.
Wow so many subjects you covered, I thought. I think the Knicks will be better than last year. Experience and continuity being the reasons. Can the same be said of the Celtics and Bucks? With Tatum and Brown being the offense focus, what kind of Offense will Holiday provide? Is Holiday a better defender than Marcus Smart? Is KP better than Williams on defense? There is only 1 basketball I don’t see Boston melding. I have to see it to believe it. Will the Bucks miss Holiday’s overall play with a more of a 1 dimensional play in Dame? These are unknowns. I feel I know more what the Knicks have in continuity and more experience. I don’t get your attraction to Joel Embid. He is on a banana peel every time He’s on the court. He’s not built for New York, between literally crying, after loses and throwing team mates under the bus. His MVP award was only because of some NBA rule that one player can’t win it more than 2 years in a row. The Joker is no Joke. People can say what they want about Julius Randle, he is a Man. Embid is a child in a man’s body. The great thing about it all, is we will see how it all turns out.
Brunson has proven the odds wrong his whole career. That's our guy. Win or lose, we ride with him!
I thought immediately of Randle ... please remember you are a professional NBA basketball player on a mission to win, every moment of a game when you are on the court with your team:
“To forget one's purpose is the commonest form of stupidity.”
- Nietzsche
It's been a long time coming... with a few brief shining interludes.Red to Riles to JVG and now, Thibs' team.To steal the military come on, I'm hoping they can: Be all they can be. Playing hard. Playing smart. Sharing the ball. Crashing the boards. "D" ing up their men. Helping [as appropriate]. No easy layups [as allowed by current rules]. Few open 3s. If they show up every night and avoid the injury jinx, they'll be fine. I can assure the esteemed writer, the KFS,and my fellow fans-----in those distant Championship seasons, we didn't give a fuck about stars [though the Knicks had some], we lived and died by TEAM and teamwork. They'll be struggles, but that's life. You have to expect them, The mark of a good team is overcoming them. TEAM! Give me that over you Show Biz star driven glitz anyday! That's NY's true legacy.
Thanks,
[PS Hopefully their troll owner is so caught up with his shiny new toy in Vegas that he'll leave basketball to his Front Office.]
Agree its all about the team, and who knows, maybe they find a way to win it all without the glitzy centerpiece. If nothing else, I'm excited to see them attack the challenge.
Another great piece looking forward to season full of great content. Looking at this season as we are in year 5 of 5 year rebuilding project . Know people are worried about being stuck in middle but don’t think that’s so bad , team has went through decades of mismanagement think a few years of 45-50 years would not be worst thing in the world . Biggest thing they need to use their draft picks going forward 2 of the best players in the world are mid first round and second round picks . Stay the course enjoy the young kids development and if they are able to get a guy like Embid great , if not will not be worst thing in the world with his injury history .
Thank you KW!
Really great piece to kick off the season! ...and man that “rooting for a bunch of strangers that affect our emotional state of mind” is next level shit...and entirely accurate. Agree that success this season will not be measured in Wins and Losses. Success will be a fun team to watch that competes night in and night out. They will play for each other and make their noted depth an advantage that other teams don’t have. This will lead to a better product and the idea that they are a desirable location for stars. I think even if Brunson doesn’t shine quite as bright (I believe he will) or the team doesn’t go further this can still be a success. Last, my priority what to watch for is two (yep, I’m getting greedy) or more of RJ, IQ, Mitch or Grimes showing themselves to be legit players. Not something that if you squint a certain way and tilt your head to the right angle, they look good...but legit good for all to agree. That would be a big win!
I think those are the correct 4, although someone else brought up Mitch as their "leap" candidate and I was skeptical. I guess I kind of feel like he is what he is at this point? I'd love to be wrong. In any case, thanks for the thoughts and the kind words as always. Looking forward to reading more of them throughout the season!
The leap for Mitch is setting harder screens and adding some small moves to the basket after an offensive rebound. Not enough to just be an alley oop dunker and kick the rebound back out guy 100% off the time.
"Whether they are on the high or low end of the league’s juicy middle is debatable; that they are squarely in NBA purgatory - for the moment at least - is not."
This is the conclusion I came to watching the FIBA series this summer. As much as I love Brunson and this version of the Knicks, there are multiple teams of veteran superstars above them, and teams with rapidly ascending young talent below them that are going to squeeze them squarely in the upper middle (at best). I question the star trade route, because of the cost of these trades in terms of current talent (the Mitchell trade is an example of a crazy price for a guy who does not guarantee anything). The Knicks win more because of the sum of the parts than do to individual brilliance. Take that away for a star trade and I can see them being less successful despite the superstar presence.
I would rather see the Knicks use the draft capital to be aggressive in the draft. I am sure a lot will disagree.
This is why I was pushing for them to move up to draft Jaden Ivey (before they got Brunson). FWIW, I don't think there's a chance in hell they do this. If anything, if Embiid doesn't happen, maybe they make a play for a high pedigree young player whose team has some modicum of doubt. Jalen Green would have fit this definition this summer (I say because he was reported as not being untouchable earlier in the summer).
I agree they are committed to the star route. I think it was the play they had to make to placate the [idiotic] owner. That said, I have a tough time seeing the trade that gets them into serious and continuous finals consideration. I would love to see a trade for a high pedigree young player.
Hope you had a good summer. Between the move and trying to create content in the barren times is a lot.
Thanks for those final words Peter. It was...a lot lol. But I did rest a bit.
As for the owner comment, I cannot agree enough. Now, in fairness, it may work out. I'm hopeful. But the move was to go into a prolonged tank. And Dolan was never signing up for that. Given those perameters, leon has done about as well as he could have.
Good newsletter, but the pod? I think it's up there in the top 5. Macri solo should be a semi-regular thing for KFS. Loved it!
Damn man, THANK YOU. It was honestly a very last minute thing and I was flying by the seat of my pants. I knew I had a thing to say but I didn't really know how I wanted to say it. Thank you for making me think it was OK!
I'm a little worried we could see a bit of a repeat of 21-22 this year. We outplayed expectations last year, but then didn't really make moves to improve to the next level. As you noted, Jon, there is a large fluctuation in season to season performance of teams outside the big 3 teams anchored by the MVPs. I worry the Knicks plan to tread water may bite them in the butt. We shall see. Hopefully Grimes and RJ and IQ can make enough improvements to their game to keep us on the upswing...
But at some point we'll have to stop letting perfect be the enemy of the good. I'm okay with not trading for Jrue (though I'm pissed Boston got him). That said, I think they NEED to make a move for the first piece and try to retain enough flexibility to add another down the road. I worry there will be a regression and disappointment if they don't. The same logic Windy and Lowe applied to the Knicks potentially getting Jrue (he will improve the team, and help entice the next star) should be applied to the next move they make. Obviously being judicious about who the piece is and what the fit is (aka no Harden plz) is huge. But I think there is a such a thing as being too patient here and missing the boat. I think we took a big step back this week, purely because Milwaukee and Boston took huge steps forward. The NBA is a zero sum game - their gains are our loss, in one way or another. Say we get smoked by Boston and Milwaukee this season in the majority of our matchups - will Joel still look at NY as the place to make his big move?
Sean, I cannot agree more. In 21-22, we were using all the same enthusiastic statements about continuity and maturity and how those advantages will help the team continue to grow. Well, we all know how that worked out.
To me the x-factor is Grimes. He had his first full season last year as a starter. I'm excited to see where he might get to with conditioning and off-season growth. While I wouldn't put us as a front-runner in the race for the finals, we actually came reasonably close to the conference finals last year with Julius and JB hurting, IQ cooked and Grimes a bit gimpy. I know it seems crazy to think, but if you don't take that as an anomoly, then we aren't middle of the pack as a team. We are middle of the pack on paper. We are young, growing, a top defense and offense. How that happened without a 'superstar'...who knows? Maybe Julius and Brunson are superstars? Let's see if Grimes, IQ, RJ, Mitch and even Deuce can raise their games all 10% or so. Hartenstein was nice at the end too. It's exciting.
I think the major theme of the 2023-24 Knicks is that they are in the dreaded middle of the pack. Probably not good enough to win more than a round of the playoffs (maybe just making the playoffs will be a challenge?) And not bad enough to have a shot at a top 3 lottery pick.
And of course, we continue on the Rose Admin theme, “waiting for Godot.” All I’ve read for the past 3-4 years is the Knicks have a lot of young talent and a ton of moveable draft picks to go after the next “star.”
Well, many have passed us buy in those 3-4 years.
It’s one reason I was hoping for a Holiday deal. While it’s nice to dream about getting the next big star, I’d prefer continuing to build a top playoff contender while still waiting for that next star. If they were able to get Holiday, they probably would not be in the Milwaukee’s class but they’d have a punchers shot at Boston, Philadelphia and very possibly would be the favorites against anyone else in the division.
Hope. That’s all I want, is hope.
Keep hope alive. Yes, they've waited...but this was always going to be a process. They had a weaker asset base than any team in the league when Leon took over. Now? They're arguably the best positioned team in the NBA to make a star trade because of where they play and the assets they have.
Interesting point but I have a question for you Jonathan. Why do so many of the NBA literati say that the Nets are in the best position for the next superstar trade, not the Knicks? Now, I disagree with that take but I read it too often from writers and commentators I respect to simply dismiss it.
Because they have distant unprotected Suns picks, and one distant unrprotected Mavs pick. Those are the golden tickets of NBA trades, and THE asset(s) you want if you're trading a star, assuming someone isn't dumb enough to send you an SGA-caliber player after his rookie season.
Thanks JM, that makes sense. However, that means if the Knicks and Nets go after the same player (Embiid, cough, Embiid), the Knicks will probably lose. Unless of course, the lure of playing in MSG plays an outsized role.
That's why NY really needs to leave no doubt in his mind that this is the place for him to win his ring.
How important is the (difficult-seeming) start of the season? With Fournier expiring and no contract large enough to ship out on its own, doesn’t the outgoing player package start to get a bit expensive past the trade deadline without any reason to expect a commensurate reduction in picks?
Should’ve read today’s first! Thanks
No worries!
This was a really good one. I’ve been somewhat bothered by some of the optimism surrounding this team. It’s not bc they aren’t good it’s bc of how good you have to be to be “entrenched” and I don’t think we there yet. You did a good job showing how few teams are there. Unfortunately this means a step back is possible.
The depth gives stability and makes a big drop off much less likely. It also makes it harder for the rookie contract guys to jump from good rotation player to being seen as a “blue chip” prospect. That’s disappointing bc I want to watch a guy grow into that. It’s not the worst thing bc the team is stable, deep, and has the a lot of pretty nice trade chips.
Fortunately or unfortunately the future is tied to Randle, Thibs, and the possible star trade. They picked a path. I’m confident they won’t drive off the road. That’s good.
I don’t think it is unreasonable to expect both RJ and Grimes to improve, for Mitchell R to be better at foul shots, for a full season of Hart to help and for DeVincenzo to add value. So I am looking for the upper tier of the middle tier.
The two biggest upgrades we could hope for are RJ and Grimes. I have been a proponent of swapping out RJ for OG, which could happen if Toronto ever pulls the trigger on anything. But continued improvement from RJ could mean that we don’t need to do it or that it gets done for a cheaper price.
Similarly, I would like to add
Donovan Mitchell. The fact that he is expected to be a flight risk might mean Cleveland deals him sooner than he can hit free agency. Now I don’t ever expect Grimes to become as good as
D Mitch, but I can see him developing the ability to create his own shot and getting from an 11 point a game scorer to a 15-20 point scorer to add to his already outstanding
D. That’s a real trade chip of substance (almost the OG of off guards, but much cheaper). So if he gets there, I might forget entirely about
D Mitch or at least might be able to get him for less.
I like the idea of Embiid, a healthy Embiid, if over the course of the season he goes through his usual routine of nagging injuries that linger into the playoffs, do the Knicks still go all in for that ?
I'm not sure they'll have a choice. As Simon Roth once said, "This...is the business...we've chosen." Leon Rose picked the path 3.5 years ago. Embiid seems to be the one that is likeliest to shake loose. Thus, he's the guy.
Unless a certain Texas team has a disappointing season and misses the playoffs again...
Fair...but I don't see Cuban trading him here next summer, not with 2 more years left before he can hit FA
One of my favorite quotes but it’s Hyman Roth, JM.
OMG....i really need to get more sleep! Terrible job by me there.
Def not a biggie JM
Wow so many subjects you covered, I thought. I think the Knicks will be better than last year. Experience and continuity being the reasons. Can the same be said of the Celtics and Bucks? With Tatum and Brown being the offense focus, what kind of Offense will Holiday provide? Is Holiday a better defender than Marcus Smart? Is KP better than Williams on defense? There is only 1 basketball I don’t see Boston melding. I have to see it to believe it. Will the Bucks miss Holiday’s overall play with a more of a 1 dimensional play in Dame? These are unknowns. I feel I know more what the Knicks have in continuity and more experience. I don’t get your attraction to Joel Embid. He is on a banana peel every time He’s on the court. He’s not built for New York, between literally crying, after loses and throwing team mates under the bus. His MVP award was only because of some NBA rule that one player can’t win it more than 2 years in a row. The Joker is no Joke. People can say what they want about Julius Randle, he is a Man. Embid is a child in a man’s body. The great thing about it all, is we will see how it all turns out.
I mean, the man won an MVP. Fake MVP or no fake MVP, you have to be pretty good to do that.