In high school I spent an entire geometry class figuring out that the JLIG freshly carved in my desk stood for Jerry Lucas Is Great. He was a terrific pickup and did help a great Knicks team reach the finals against the Lakers. They ( Jerry ) was crushed by Wilt. The next year Willis is back for the finals. We handedly take out Wilt and The Lakers and Willis is Finals MVP. I’m hoping your Lucas comp is wrong. I’m hoping more of Willis comp. I’m more than a little skeptical, but we can dream.
1) It's interesting how national media suddenly assesses the Pistons pick as having a lot of value now that it belongs to the TWolves -- can't wait to hear about how much the Wizards pick is worth once it is gone
2) I wish they didn't have to include DDV in the deal but I think his true player value is being a little bit inflated. On GMAC's appearance on the game theory podcast, Vecenie said he valued DDV as 3 first round picks and now, today, Jon is talking about the idea of some team making a godfather offer for him. If you go back to the Philly series, DDV made the game 2 shot but struggled, scoring less than 10 pts in 4 of 6 games and couldn't really defend Maxey at all. As great as DDV was in certain games against the Pacers, he also scored less than 10 pts 2 times. While DDV's a gamer, at 6'4" he's a little small to be a starting 2 guard and isn't a PG. I think his ideal role is a 6th man. FWIW - when Derrick White was with the Spurs he was on Team USA during the 2019 FIBA tournament.
3) My biggest concern when we traded for Jalen was that Thibs liked to park a center in the dunker's spot and Julius and RJ didn't really space the floor. Jalen was excellent in the playoffs in Dallas when they played 5 out with Kleber at center. I just don't see how any team will be able to guard Jalen when we play 5 out.
Looking over all the rumor and debate it feels like this should've been expected. I'm as wrong as I've ever been in fandom. I was sure Randle would be back and KAT would stay a Wolf until he was a Clipper or some shit.
Oh well, let's go Knicks.
One last time but with resignation; dread it, run from it, destiny or KAT arrives all the same.
I was looking forward to this newsletter all weekend. Thank you, Jon, for delivering the goods, again and again.
We've seen plenty of teams find a way to add depth during the season - including our own (see the Rose and Hart trades during the Leon era) - so I'm not panicking about where things stand right now if they don't pull off a Mitch trade before October 22nd. Mitch plus a few smal/vetl salaries, second rounders and/or pick swaps will get us in the conversation for reinforcements at the wing and backup 5. At some point, we're going to be truly loaded.
But it's also true that this may take some time - having the vast majority of training camp to incorporate KAT and Bridges will help, but I wouldn't be surprised if we encounter some early bumps.
My hope is that we can have some collective patience and not pounce on the team/KAT/Leon as soon as the going gets tough. This is already the most talented Knicks team I've ever rooted for, with a championship ceiling and window for years to come. That's gotta count for something, no?
Great piece. We’ll be processing this one for a while. I heard Bontemps kill the trade on Hoop Collective and say Philly was better. I guess it comes down to whether one is bullish on Towns or not. I tell you, I’d much much rather have Brunson Bridges OG and Towns than the Sixers three. Jalen taking less allows us to likely have 4 large contracts in the apron era rather than 3 (which Windhorst alluded to).
We got it done. This was the most important step that we had to take or we would’ve not been a real contender in my book. Getting a 7 foot big man that can shoot score and pass like KAT gives us the big man talent you need in today’s nba to win a title. We can play 5 out now and be a top 3 offense in the league. I still think we can be a top 10 defense as well if we get another wing off the bench.
Brunson
Deuce
Mikal
Og
Kat
Bench:
Kolek/payne
Hart
Wing (grant Williams I’d like)
Precious
Is the rotation I see. Absolute home run for the Knicks. Ik losing donte sucks and I’m a huge donte fan, but turning Randle who had no value into this type of talent is a home run.
Santi Aldama + John Konchar seem to match to the dollar on the trade machine for Mitch.
Maybe Memphis does it if we sweeten it a bit w a pick? If they want JJJ at PF, w GG Jackson and Brandon Clarke on the roster, + only rookie Edey at C. Maybe they'd be interested in Mitch? Im more skeptical MEM does this than NYK, but I am super intrigued with what Thibs can get out of Aldama, who can play rotation minutes at the 4 and be another stretchy 5.
You know what? I think that Memphis makes the deal because it’s a ceiling play for them and they have confidence in their ability to unearth rotation diamonds in the rough. I’m not sure NY does it, but they at least take a meeting.
Jonathan, pardon my ignorance but who is Mook. Is it Marcus Morris? Either way I saw that they just waived him. I thought he was a good signing. Veteran presence and had a good year when he was here. Other than Achuwa, what other big guy do they have as a PF reserve or somewhat smallish 5 who can shoot?
Sorry Phil, I misspoke. Because they're so close up against the second apron, they won't have room to re-sign Morris. Instead, they'll have to convert one of the 2-way players who will then be their 14th man.
I’m not sure if the shock has worn off yet for me. Thanks for all the great coverage this weekend, Jon. I would consider myself more or less positive on this trade at this rate, even though my initial reaction to losing DDV was intensely negative. I understand it, at least.
The big question for me now is: does it make the most sense to keep Mitch to allow for maximum lineup flexibility? Or try to move Mitch for a depth piece that would help them play the five out style they appear to be all in on? I’m guessing it will be the latter, though thinking about Philly… I would be concerned to lose Mitch. He’s a nice security blanket to have, even if he may not be healthy until Jan/Feb.
I suspect Mitch’s trade value has diminished significantly with all the injuries and social media nonsense. Knicks may be better off keeping Mitch as a 15 MPG off the bench stopper than whatever they’d get in return. Precious becomes our backup 4.
The trade still doesn’t feel real. It probably won’t for me until opening night.
As the kids say, I was in my feelings for a bit after the OG trade, but there the next game was 2 days later and you had no choice but to move on quickly. I’m gonna be sitting around for the next 3 weeks anxiously wondering what this team is going to look like, hoping KAT will make me eat crow
KAT has become almost underrated from an offensive standpoint - he legit has a case as the best shooting big ever (just ask him) and he's only 28. And for all the concerns about defense, that's why the Knicks employ OG, Mikel, Hart and Deuce (and eventually Mitch will be back). Get ready for a forcefield of defense on the perimeter that greatly reduces action at the rim.
Per usual, awesome couple days of coverage, and can’t wait for the coming weeks! Aside from the (increasingly more frequent!) moments in June, bold moves from the FO and best-in-the-league journalism is a huge part of what makes Knicks and NBA fandom so fun! Thanks as always JM!!
In addition to the stats you mentioned, I was surprised to learn that KAT is second behind Steph and immediately ahead of KD, Embiid, Reggie Miller, and James Harden in career TS% for guys with >3PA/G (and still shooting at that all-time level). The only outliers that just miss the cut are Jokic and John Collins. The front office has come a long way from last year’s concerns of your turn / my turn paint clogging with Randle and RJ, and hopefully it emboldens Mikal and KAT to continue making strides as drivers and secondary playmakers when attacking closeouts.
In terms of comps, one challenge is the age and go-forward outlook for KAT and Randle as they return from injuries on the doorstep of 30. Given the points you and other commenters have made on KAT’s injury concerns, I wonder if the more apt comparison is to another beloved OAKAAK, Amare Stoudemire. KAT is one year older than STAT was when he signed and carries a debatably more checkered injury history. Dwight (and the Bynum/Iguodala swap) was another late-prime blockbuster for a big that came to mind. I personally love the fit for the points you made and hope we just added out “second best player on a championship team,” but I wonder if there’s still another pivot move for our endlessly creative front office.
Thank you for the kind words Cole, I hope you know I always appreciate them.
KAT's shooting is absurd. Truly absurd. I'm not sure that many fans realize how special this is.
As far as comps, I was only thinking trades, so no STAT. Dwight was viewed as so much better than anyone else in that deal at the time, and Orlando was also quite bad at the time
Interesting that Jerry Lucas was used in comparison. Although it isn’t quite the same . Many fans including myself were upset Howie Komives went in the Dave DeBusschere trade.😂. The fans can be irrational in their love of their teams and their players.
Your focus on "offense" over defense as a trend among chip winners strikes me as on point. I recall Hubie Brown's notable quip: "scoring makes up for alot of sins." Knicks will look to acquire ascoring guard/small forward to replace Dante before trade deadline--perhaps before end of preseason.
Really good points here Macri. The hope is that KAT has the personal legacy realization you illuminated and further as a NY kid sees a chance to take this Brunson led crew to the promised land and be a legend forever in doing so. I hope we love this roster because this is our core for the foreseeable future.
In high school I spent an entire geometry class figuring out that the JLIG freshly carved in my desk stood for Jerry Lucas Is Great. He was a terrific pickup and did help a great Knicks team reach the finals against the Lakers. They ( Jerry ) was crushed by Wilt. The next year Willis is back for the finals. We handedly take out Wilt and The Lakers and Willis is Finals MVP. I’m hoping your Lucas comp is wrong. I’m hoping more of Willis comp. I’m more than a little skeptical, but we can dream.
A couple of thoughts:
1) It's interesting how national media suddenly assesses the Pistons pick as having a lot of value now that it belongs to the TWolves -- can't wait to hear about how much the Wizards pick is worth once it is gone
2) I wish they didn't have to include DDV in the deal but I think his true player value is being a little bit inflated. On GMAC's appearance on the game theory podcast, Vecenie said he valued DDV as 3 first round picks and now, today, Jon is talking about the idea of some team making a godfather offer for him. If you go back to the Philly series, DDV made the game 2 shot but struggled, scoring less than 10 pts in 4 of 6 games and couldn't really defend Maxey at all. As great as DDV was in certain games against the Pacers, he also scored less than 10 pts 2 times. While DDV's a gamer, at 6'4" he's a little small to be a starting 2 guard and isn't a PG. I think his ideal role is a 6th man. FWIW - when Derrick White was with the Spurs he was on Team USA during the 2019 FIBA tournament.
3) My biggest concern when we traded for Jalen was that Thibs liked to park a center in the dunker's spot and Julius and RJ didn't really space the floor. Jalen was excellent in the playoffs in Dallas when they played 5 out with Kleber at center. I just don't see how any team will be able to guard Jalen when we play 5 out.
They won’t be able to. And GREAT point on the discussion of the Pistons pick.
Well done. It’s amazing how many mainstream journalists harbor an inner dislike of anything Knicks.
Looking over all the rumor and debate it feels like this should've been expected. I'm as wrong as I've ever been in fandom. I was sure Randle would be back and KAT would stay a Wolf until he was a Clipper or some shit.
Oh well, let's go Knicks.
One last time but with resignation; dread it, run from it, destiny or KAT arrives all the same.
Always had a feeling this was coming. Oh well.
Macri can you drop the link for the Venmo for your reverse vasectomy? Thanks in advance!
Just come babysit my existing kids.
I was looking forward to this newsletter all weekend. Thank you, Jon, for delivering the goods, again and again.
We've seen plenty of teams find a way to add depth during the season - including our own (see the Rose and Hart trades during the Leon era) - so I'm not panicking about where things stand right now if they don't pull off a Mitch trade before October 22nd. Mitch plus a few smal/vetl salaries, second rounders and/or pick swaps will get us in the conversation for reinforcements at the wing and backup 5. At some point, we're going to be truly loaded.
But it's also true that this may take some time - having the vast majority of training camp to incorporate KAT and Bridges will help, but I wouldn't be surprised if we encounter some early bumps.
My hope is that we can have some collective patience and not pounce on the team/KAT/Leon as soon as the going gets tough. This is already the most talented Knicks team I've ever rooted for, with a championship ceiling and window for years to come. That's gotta count for something, no?
You’re very welcome Bobby. And early bumps are fine, as long as they’re rowing in the same direction.
Great piece. We’ll be processing this one for a while. I heard Bontemps kill the trade on Hoop Collective and say Philly was better. I guess it comes down to whether one is bullish on Towns or not. I tell you, I’d much much rather have Brunson Bridges OG and Towns than the Sixers three. Jalen taking less allows us to likely have 4 large contracts in the apron era rather than 3 (which Windhorst alluded to).
You nailed it. If you believe in Towns, it’s a great swing. If not, well…
We got it done. This was the most important step that we had to take or we would’ve not been a real contender in my book. Getting a 7 foot big man that can shoot score and pass like KAT gives us the big man talent you need in today’s nba to win a title. We can play 5 out now and be a top 3 offense in the league. I still think we can be a top 10 defense as well if we get another wing off the bench.
Brunson
Deuce
Mikal
Og
Kat
Bench:
Kolek/payne
Hart
Wing (grant Williams I’d like)
Precious
Is the rotation I see. Absolute home run for the Knicks. Ik losing donte sucks and I’m a huge donte fan, but turning Randle who had no value into this type of talent is a home run.
hypothetical Mitch trade for the archives Jon,
Santi Aldama + John Konchar seem to match to the dollar on the trade machine for Mitch.
Maybe Memphis does it if we sweeten it a bit w a pick? If they want JJJ at PF, w GG Jackson and Brandon Clarke on the roster, + only rookie Edey at C. Maybe they'd be interested in Mitch? Im more skeptical MEM does this than NYK, but I am super intrigued with what Thibs can get out of Aldama, who can play rotation minutes at the 4 and be another stretchy 5.
You know what? I think that Memphis makes the deal because it’s a ceiling play for them and they have confidence in their ability to unearth rotation diamonds in the rough. I’m not sure NY does it, but they at least take a meeting.
Jonathan, pardon my ignorance but who is Mook. Is it Marcus Morris? Either way I saw that they just waived him. I thought he was a good signing. Veteran presence and had a good year when he was here. Other than Achuwa, what other big guy do they have as a PF reserve or somewhat smallish 5 who can shoot?
It is Morris, sorry. But they’ll re-sign him after the trade.
That's gud to hear. I think he will make a nice contribution to this year's team.
Sorry Phil, I misspoke. Because they're so close up against the second apron, they won't have room to re-sign Morris. Instead, they'll have to convert one of the 2-way players who will then be their 14th man.
Thats quite unfortunate as he wud have been a really gud addition.
I’m not sure if the shock has worn off yet for me. Thanks for all the great coverage this weekend, Jon. I would consider myself more or less positive on this trade at this rate, even though my initial reaction to losing DDV was intensely negative. I understand it, at least.
The big question for me now is: does it make the most sense to keep Mitch to allow for maximum lineup flexibility? Or try to move Mitch for a depth piece that would help them play the five out style they appear to be all in on? I’m guessing it will be the latter, though thinking about Philly… I would be concerned to lose Mitch. He’s a nice security blanket to have, even if he may not be healthy until Jan/Feb.
And it depends on what they get for Mitch.
You’re very welcome Sean.
I suspect Mitch’s trade value has diminished significantly with all the injuries and social media nonsense. Knicks may be better off keeping Mitch as a 15 MPG off the bench stopper than whatever they’d get in return. Precious becomes our backup 4.
The trade still doesn’t feel real. It probably won’t for me until opening night.
As the kids say, I was in my feelings for a bit after the OG trade, but there the next game was 2 days later and you had no choice but to move on quickly. I’m gonna be sitting around for the next 3 weeks anxiously wondering what this team is going to look like, hoping KAT will make me eat crow
I think you’ll be pleasantly surprised
KAT has become almost underrated from an offensive standpoint - he legit has a case as the best shooting big ever (just ask him) and he's only 28. And for all the concerns about defense, that's why the Knicks employ OG, Mikel, Hart and Deuce (and eventually Mitch will be back). Get ready for a forcefield of defense on the perimeter that greatly reduces action at the rim.
Per usual, awesome couple days of coverage, and can’t wait for the coming weeks! Aside from the (increasingly more frequent!) moments in June, bold moves from the FO and best-in-the-league journalism is a huge part of what makes Knicks and NBA fandom so fun! Thanks as always JM!!
In addition to the stats you mentioned, I was surprised to learn that KAT is second behind Steph and immediately ahead of KD, Embiid, Reggie Miller, and James Harden in career TS% for guys with >3PA/G (and still shooting at that all-time level). The only outliers that just miss the cut are Jokic and John Collins. The front office has come a long way from last year’s concerns of your turn / my turn paint clogging with Randle and RJ, and hopefully it emboldens Mikal and KAT to continue making strides as drivers and secondary playmakers when attacking closeouts.
In terms of comps, one challenge is the age and go-forward outlook for KAT and Randle as they return from injuries on the doorstep of 30. Given the points you and other commenters have made on KAT’s injury concerns, I wonder if the more apt comparison is to another beloved OAKAAK, Amare Stoudemire. KAT is one year older than STAT was when he signed and carries a debatably more checkered injury history. Dwight (and the Bynum/Iguodala swap) was another late-prime blockbuster for a big that came to mind. I personally love the fit for the points you made and hope we just added out “second best player on a championship team,” but I wonder if there’s still another pivot move for our endlessly creative front office.
Thank you for the kind words Cole, I hope you know I always appreciate them.
KAT's shooting is absurd. Truly absurd. I'm not sure that many fans realize how special this is.
As far as comps, I was only thinking trades, so no STAT. Dwight was viewed as so much better than anyone else in that deal at the time, and Orlando was also quite bad at the time
Depth is definitely a concern.
Last years rotation at the beginning of the season vs. this year's possible rotation. They definitely could use some help this season!
1. Brunson 1. Brunson
2. Grimes 2. Bridges
3. Barrett 3. Hart
4. Randle 4. OG
5. Mitch 5. KAT
6. Quickley 6. Deuce
7. Hart 7. Precious
8. DiVo 8. Kolek
9. I Hart 9. Payne
Interesting that Jerry Lucas was used in comparison. Although it isn’t quite the same . Many fans including myself were upset Howie Komives went in the Dave DeBusschere trade.😂. The fans can be irrational in their love of their teams and their players.
Fans? Irrational? NEVER!!
Your focus on "offense" over defense as a trend among chip winners strikes me as on point. I recall Hubie Brown's notable quip: "scoring makes up for alot of sins." Knicks will look to acquire ascoring guard/small forward to replace Dante before trade deadline--perhaps before end of preseason.
Really good points here Macri. The hope is that KAT has the personal legacy realization you illuminated and further as a NY kid sees a chance to take this Brunson led crew to the promised land and be a legend forever in doing so. I hope we love this roster because this is our core for the foreseeable future.
Thanks! I hope so too.