So a question more than a comment -- given that the Knicks have been so high in net rating, why are they teetering around .500 (arguably a little better right now). The lack of consistent closing? Losing an inordinate number of close games versus an occasional blowout - a statistical argument? High floor, low ceiling? Something else? It is hard to reconcile the two ideas...
As to Thibs, I can like/love him as the NY coach and still be frustrated with some of his in-game decision making and rotation decisions. I adore my wife (of 30+ years) but can still find she does things that make me crazy. I don't think it has to be all or none.
Based on CTG's "point differential" stat, which measures how many more/fewer wins a team should have based on their net rating, the Knicks should have exactly one more win. That's not a huge number, and doesn't indicate a massive issue (like, say, the Raptors, who have 3 fewer wins than their point differential indicates). I think it just means they've lost a few more close ones than they probably should have (Bulls, Mavs).
And I adore the coach/wife comp, and in fact, thought of that same analogy as I was penning this. I've been making a few relationship analogies lately so I bypassed it here, but very well said.
One answer for me KNICKS don’t get the respect from the Refs that some other teams get. Embid who is the biggest bully on the court gets treated like he’s a fragile flower, for example. How many calls has Randle gotten. It’s improving because the Knicks are playing better. However the Refs have really sucked
I love Thibs, and I love winning. His hand print is all over this team. Many might think decisions are being made entirely by the front office. Thibs “old school “ style may not please many. However the only ones his style has to please are his players. You left out his reputation as not being able to develop young players. The Knick’s roster and rotation shows otherwise. The evidence that his style doesn’t fit anymore because of what? This team is being built with players like him. That is quite obvious. Look at every player, all hard over achieving workers. You made the obvious point, where was this team going before Thibs. You said it worst team in the NBA. Now fans should be ecstatic, but no, we need “Super Stars” to win. Every team has a super star or a super star wannabe . However only one team wins a CHP in each year. I for one am enjoying this trip, I love players who exceed the expectations of them. To see end of the 1st and 2nd round players develop is a greater joy to me than buying a “star”. I collect many things myself guitars, clocks, watches, nothing gives me greater satisfaction than buying something at a bargain price and see it’s value sky rocket. In other words “ buy low sell high”. Nothing would bother me more than buying the most expensive car and then crashing it. That’s me, I’ve seen this team in many iterations, I’ve seen the revolving doors of Front Offices, Coaches and Players. I ‘m happy with the stability and foundation of hard work that we have now. I say continue the course and enjoy the ride. Thibs is the foundation, let’s build a house with good quality materials that will last, the winning will come.
Totally agree. The team is fun to watch--often gut-wrenching and heart-breaking--but hell, who said being a sports fan is easy? Like the man said: blood, sweat, and tears.
When the team starts to jell ( just starting to scratch the surface) and we move up. Fans will say why couldn’t we do this last year. Like you said it takes “blood, sweat and tears”. Plus we didn’t have Jalen Brunson.
Yeah I didn't go into detail on all the different critiques that have been lobbed at him over the years because that would be a long list lol...
I'm enjoying the journey too. Last year was not fun, but this year certainly has been, and I see no reason why it won't continue. And Thibs is a big part of that.
I really liked this one because it cut through all the anti-Thibs noise to look at the facts. I don't know what is in the future for the team or its coach, but we need to let the facts, not our emotions, guide us. I think you did a great job of showing Thibs's strengths and weaknesses.
thanks Jon. Thibs deserved this piece.. Ive been a fan of his since his days in NY as an assistant.
thibs is getting the most out of every one.. young players are developing and the team is winning more than it's losing.. even with the deadpan press conferences Thibs is the best coach we've had since young JVG and deserves to be recognized for his achievements. Bravo.
Say what you may about the guy, I doubt that there many other coaches who would have this team sniffing around 500 3 yrs in a row given the level of talent he’s had to work with. Phil won with 2 of the greatest players ever on his teams. Spolstra same. Pops also had elite talent on his championship teams. Outside of prime D. Rose for a brief period, Thibs has never had the best player in the league on his side. His record is impressive when you consider that.
I think the same thing...he had a year and a half of prime Rose, however many years of prime Butler, and now Brunson and Randle, who I would argue he's helping to elevate.
From day 1 the job of this FO was to get the Knicks as an organization to a point of basic respectability. Thibs has been a huge part of every step towards that goal. Assuming a play in berth this year and especially a playoff appearance Thibs is the best coach we've had since Van Gundy.
Bravo! I wish I understood the internal process of team building more. While Rose has said that the front office doesn't intrude on decisions about the team's rotation or the playing time allotment... Thibs knows that he has to keep his superiors and owner happy.
I got to witness Red in all his glory. Saw Hubie growling and barking on the sideline. Watched young Pitino unleash a bomb squad. Riles bully the NBA. And JVG urge his squad up the mountainside. Washed out greats have come for the Dolan's dollars. And, a couple of visionaries were denied the full opportunity to build the team they wanted. Untimely injuries, cap mismanagement, and poor player selections have stymied coaches. Dolan. His malign presence, his ego, his interference, his love affair with CAA, has been an impediment.
As difficult and disappointing as Thibs' tenure has been at times, this has been a relative time of peace and plenty at the Garden. Enjoy it. I do. Root for Tom. Growth by his squad, internally and with reinforcements. Victories might never be sweeter. Shock the basketball world!
Thanks! Thibs is certainly cognizant of the mouth that feeds him and how much he can test everyone's limits.
And that's a WONDERFUL encapsulation of the last 50+ years. I agree that it isn't a coincidence that so many coaches have come here and failed since Dolan has owned (and that JVG got the hell out of Dodge soon after Jimmy took over).
I had an idea to write something like this back in the offseason but thought it was taking too long and wouldn't have been appreciated. It certainly wouldn't have been as well written and to-the-point as this piece. Thanks for another great read Jon
Love this one. Thibs is such a crucible for different POVs from Knick faithful. I've flip flopped on him a few times but never landed in the "Thibs Must Go" camp. More of the "I wouldn't be devastated if he was fired" or "maybe they'd be more interesting to watch without him" was about as far as I could go. There's never been anyone who appropriately receives the "he is what he is" moniker. He is most similar to Buck Showalter in MLB in that he's taken multiple teams from utter ineptitude, implemented a repeatable system and culture of accountability and then eventually wears people out to the point where an easier going replacement is selected...who takes the team to the promised land. That transitional period from "shit" to "showing signs" I would argue is harder than winning it all. Of course, winning it all is what more casual fans value and celebrate (somewhat understandably). I'm here for Thibs as that adult in the room that is helping us gain credibility, implementing an organized plan (love it or not) and getting us to the next level. He should be celebrated. Congrats you stubborn old goat on 100 wins!
Yeah. Prime Butler is not prime MJ, or prime Kobe & Shaq, or prime Curry, or prime Tim Duncan, or prime Lebron and D. Wade! Butler is a good player, but not on the same level in my opinion. Anyway, if you give him talent he wins. Whether he’s ever going to win a ring, let’s see!
Old school is just a euphemism for being an asshole who plays psychological games instead of believing that teaching combined with your players innate love of the game will lead them to make good decisions and give effort. Never trust someone that talks about how much they work all the time. They are like people that think they deserve something b/c they "pay taxes". Most everyone does, shut up boomer.
Is this the survey you are quoting? Read the article not the head line. It states a third of players surveyed not all players in the league. A third of those surveyed didn’t want to play for Thibodeau. Do the math 1/3 is not a majority.
No one recieved a majority of votes and no where did I say all players completed the survey. "there was an NBA survey that asked what coach you would least want to play for. Thibs got the most votes" . That's true.
It’s WAAAAAY to early to size up the legacy of coach Thibodeau, but I will make a few generalizations in the context of all of what you laid out.
If Thibs doesn’t win a championship, we’ll then he’s probably got another decade to go of winning basketball to even be a marginal candidate. If he should ever happen to win a ring in NY, forget about it, he’s a lock, because that would be the equivalent of breaking the curse for the Red Sox or the Cubs, and then on top of that his resume prior which you detailed.
Let’s say he doesn’t win it all, but has 3 or 4 more good years where they improve and make some deep runs in the post season, then moves on and has a successful run somewhere else, building a young team into an annual playoff entrant over another 4-5 years. Then he’s a borderline candidate, but borderline candidates don’t usually get in. Maybe if he sticks around longer, but I just don’t see it.
He’s every bit as good as Carlisle and Budenholzer, who are both great coaches in their own respect with or without a ring, honestly, I think all 3 can coach circles around Spolestra, Popovich, and Kerr, but for better or for worse they measure coaches first and foremost by the number of titles.
I think he needs one more deep run with some team, maybe one year in the Finals, or multiple years winning a playoff series...something like this. If he ever won a playoff series with this group, I think that would go a long way.
So a question more than a comment -- given that the Knicks have been so high in net rating, why are they teetering around .500 (arguably a little better right now). The lack of consistent closing? Losing an inordinate number of close games versus an occasional blowout - a statistical argument? High floor, low ceiling? Something else? It is hard to reconcile the two ideas...
As to Thibs, I can like/love him as the NY coach and still be frustrated with some of his in-game decision making and rotation decisions. I adore my wife (of 30+ years) but can still find she does things that make me crazy. I don't think it has to be all or none.
Based on CTG's "point differential" stat, which measures how many more/fewer wins a team should have based on their net rating, the Knicks should have exactly one more win. That's not a huge number, and doesn't indicate a massive issue (like, say, the Raptors, who have 3 fewer wins than their point differential indicates). I think it just means they've lost a few more close ones than they probably should have (Bulls, Mavs).
And I adore the coach/wife comp, and in fact, thought of that same analogy as I was penning this. I've been making a few relationship analogies lately so I bypassed it here, but very well said.
One answer for me KNICKS don’t get the respect from the Refs that some other teams get. Embid who is the biggest bully on the court gets treated like he’s a fragile flower, for example. How many calls has Randle gotten. It’s improving because the Knicks are playing better. However the Refs have really sucked
From your mouth to Gods ears!
I love Thibs, and I love winning. His hand print is all over this team. Many might think decisions are being made entirely by the front office. Thibs “old school “ style may not please many. However the only ones his style has to please are his players. You left out his reputation as not being able to develop young players. The Knick’s roster and rotation shows otherwise. The evidence that his style doesn’t fit anymore because of what? This team is being built with players like him. That is quite obvious. Look at every player, all hard over achieving workers. You made the obvious point, where was this team going before Thibs. You said it worst team in the NBA. Now fans should be ecstatic, but no, we need “Super Stars” to win. Every team has a super star or a super star wannabe . However only one team wins a CHP in each year. I for one am enjoying this trip, I love players who exceed the expectations of them. To see end of the 1st and 2nd round players develop is a greater joy to me than buying a “star”. I collect many things myself guitars, clocks, watches, nothing gives me greater satisfaction than buying something at a bargain price and see it’s value sky rocket. In other words “ buy low sell high”. Nothing would bother me more than buying the most expensive car and then crashing it. That’s me, I’ve seen this team in many iterations, I’ve seen the revolving doors of Front Offices, Coaches and Players. I ‘m happy with the stability and foundation of hard work that we have now. I say continue the course and enjoy the ride. Thibs is the foundation, let’s build a house with good quality materials that will last, the winning will come.
Totally agree. The team is fun to watch--often gut-wrenching and heart-breaking--but hell, who said being a sports fan is easy? Like the man said: blood, sweat, and tears.
When the team starts to jell ( just starting to scratch the surface) and we move up. Fans will say why couldn’t we do this last year. Like you said it takes “blood, sweat and tears”. Plus we didn’t have Jalen Brunson.
Need all three at some point to be successful! Glad you enjoyed.
Yeah I didn't go into detail on all the different critiques that have been lobbed at him over the years because that would be a long list lol...
I'm enjoying the journey too. Last year was not fun, but this year certainly has been, and I see no reason why it won't continue. And Thibs is a big part of that.
Very well said all around my friend.
I really liked this one because it cut through all the anti-Thibs noise to look at the facts. I don't know what is in the future for the team or its coach, but we need to let the facts, not our emotions, guide us. I think you did a great job of showing Thibs's strengths and weaknesses.
Thanks so much Randy! Appreciate the kind words.
This enthusiasm from yourself is exactly why I'm happy to be a paid subscriber. £s well-spent.
Thank you! I used to write more of these sorts of newsletters when I first started. Perhaps I should get back to them a tad more :)
thanks Jon. Thibs deserved this piece.. Ive been a fan of his since his days in NY as an assistant.
thibs is getting the most out of every one.. young players are developing and the team is winning more than it's losing.. even with the deadpan press conferences Thibs is the best coach we've had since young JVG and deserves to be recognized for his achievements. Bravo.
Glad you enjoyed! I certainly had fun writing it. He's my kind of coach, that's for sure.
Say what you may about the guy, I doubt that there many other coaches who would have this team sniffing around 500 3 yrs in a row given the level of talent he’s had to work with. Phil won with 2 of the greatest players ever on his teams. Spolstra same. Pops also had elite talent on his championship teams. Outside of prime D. Rose for a brief period, Thibs has never had the best player in the league on his side. His record is impressive when you consider that.
I think the same thing...he had a year and a half of prime Rose, however many years of prime Butler, and now Brunson and Randle, who I would argue he's helping to elevate.
From day 1 the job of this FO was to get the Knicks as an organization to a point of basic respectability. Thibs has been a huge part of every step towards that goal. Assuming a play in berth this year and especially a playoff appearance Thibs is the best coach we've had since Van Gundy.
I agree wholeheartedly with that sentiment. He can make it beyond argument if he closes this year strong.
Bravo! I wish I understood the internal process of team building more. While Rose has said that the front office doesn't intrude on decisions about the team's rotation or the playing time allotment... Thibs knows that he has to keep his superiors and owner happy.
I got to witness Red in all his glory. Saw Hubie growling and barking on the sideline. Watched young Pitino unleash a bomb squad. Riles bully the NBA. And JVG urge his squad up the mountainside. Washed out greats have come for the Dolan's dollars. And, a couple of visionaries were denied the full opportunity to build the team they wanted. Untimely injuries, cap mismanagement, and poor player selections have stymied coaches. Dolan. His malign presence, his ego, his interference, his love affair with CAA, has been an impediment.
As difficult and disappointing as Thibs' tenure has been at times, this has been a relative time of peace and plenty at the Garden. Enjoy it. I do. Root for Tom. Growth by his squad, internally and with reinforcements. Victories might never be sweeter. Shock the basketball world!
Thanks! Thibs is certainly cognizant of the mouth that feeds him and how much he can test everyone's limits.
And that's a WONDERFUL encapsulation of the last 50+ years. I agree that it isn't a coincidence that so many coaches have come here and failed since Dolan has owned (and that JVG got the hell out of Dodge soon after Jimmy took over).
love "helmets not high tops". Where do you come up with these? :)
Not gonna lie, I was proud of that one.
I had an idea to write something like this back in the offseason but thought it was taking too long and wouldn't have been appreciated. It certainly wouldn't have been as well written and to-the-point as this piece. Thanks for another great read Jon
Thank you for the kind words! I know I'm in the minority but I'm very thankful we have Thibs
Love this one. Thibs is such a crucible for different POVs from Knick faithful. I've flip flopped on him a few times but never landed in the "Thibs Must Go" camp. More of the "I wouldn't be devastated if he was fired" or "maybe they'd be more interesting to watch without him" was about as far as I could go. There's never been anyone who appropriately receives the "he is what he is" moniker. He is most similar to Buck Showalter in MLB in that he's taken multiple teams from utter ineptitude, implemented a repeatable system and culture of accountability and then eventually wears people out to the point where an easier going replacement is selected...who takes the team to the promised land. That transitional period from "shit" to "showing signs" I would argue is harder than winning it all. Of course, winning it all is what more casual fans value and celebrate (somewhat understandably). I'm here for Thibs as that adult in the room that is helping us gain credibility, implementing an organized plan (love it or not) and getting us to the next level. He should be celebrated. Congrats you stubborn old goat on 100 wins!
I got to the same place you did and have since pulled back. Why? The results got much better over a large sample size. Simple as that.
Yeah. Prime Butler is not prime MJ, or prime Kobe & Shaq, or prime Curry, or prime Tim Duncan, or prime Lebron and D. Wade! Butler is a good player, but not on the same level in my opinion. Anyway, if you give him talent he wins. Whether he’s ever going to win a ring, let’s see!
Old school is just a euphemism for being an asshole who plays psychological games instead of believing that teaching combined with your players innate love of the game will lead them to make good decisions and give effort. Never trust someone that talks about how much they work all the time. They are like people that think they deserve something b/c they "pay taxes". Most everyone does, shut up boomer.
That’s what I love about Thibs. Put the work in and you play. No head games. The players know it. That’s why you don’t hear them complaining.
Before he was with the Knicks there was an NBA survey that asked what coach you would least want to play for. Thibs got the most votes. :)
Is this the survey you are quoting? Read the article not the head line. It states a third of players surveyed not all players in the league. A third of those surveyed didn’t want to play for Thibodeau. Do the math 1/3 is not a majority.
https://www.insider.com/tom-thibodeau-turned-knicks-record-surprise-team-nba-season-2021-1
No one recieved a majority of votes and no where did I say all players completed the survey. "there was an NBA survey that asked what coach you would least want to play for. Thibs got the most votes" . That's true.
It’s WAAAAAY to early to size up the legacy of coach Thibodeau, but I will make a few generalizations in the context of all of what you laid out.
If Thibs doesn’t win a championship, we’ll then he’s probably got another decade to go of winning basketball to even be a marginal candidate. If he should ever happen to win a ring in NY, forget about it, he’s a lock, because that would be the equivalent of breaking the curse for the Red Sox or the Cubs, and then on top of that his resume prior which you detailed.
Let’s say he doesn’t win it all, but has 3 or 4 more good years where they improve and make some deep runs in the post season, then moves on and has a successful run somewhere else, building a young team into an annual playoff entrant over another 4-5 years. Then he’s a borderline candidate, but borderline candidates don’t usually get in. Maybe if he sticks around longer, but I just don’t see it.
He’s every bit as good as Carlisle and Budenholzer, who are both great coaches in their own respect with or without a ring, honestly, I think all 3 can coach circles around Spolestra, Popovich, and Kerr, but for better or for worse they measure coaches first and foremost by the number of titles.
I think he needs one more deep run with some team, maybe one year in the Finals, or multiple years winning a playoff series...something like this. If he ever won a playoff series with this group, I think that would go a long way.