I know there’s a lot of consternation right now and I get it. I hope everything falls into place soon. But it could be worse. We could be Giants Film School
Signed,
A Giants fan who just wants to enjoy football Sundays again
As a Giants fan, I’m where I was with the Knicks a few years ago. Besides wanting a new coach and GM, I want a new owner. Of course, Mara is going to sell as fast as Dolan is. At least Dolan hired a competent manager and has left him alone. So far.
For the past two years, the Knicks were a team other teams dreaded to play. And they were never out of a game because if they got seriously behind, you knew they’d scratch, claw and bite to get back into it.
I miss that team. And I really, really hope Thibs can figure out a way to bring that back.
It was so frustrating to watch that game because every possession showed the Knicks lack of length. Markkanen must have heard the noise around KAT being the most dangerous big man because he lit us up from everywhere. The Knicks lack of toughness showed in this game. I also thought the referees were on Utahs side because there were a few Knick possessions that I thought ended with our guys getting fouled. We clearly need another ball handler out there with JB because when teams focus the attack on him we are limited in shot creation. Hopefully we get to 10 wins before we get to 10 losses.
How many 4s have the length to bother Markkanen? He's great at the catch and shoot but not going to hit 62% every game. People had hands in his face but he was locked in. This was a shooting luck game.
Don’t get why people are saying Precious/Mitch/Deuce is what we should wait for before commenting on the defense. The team’s starting five is the end all be all for this team. THAT unit, by themselves, needs to figure out how to play competitive/tough/gritty/consistent defense or else we will also be a sugar-rush, offensive happy team going nowhere.
Hopefully Bridges getting benched is a wake up call. I give Thibs a lot of credit for doing that.
On a brief note, I was very impressed with Kolek’s minutes in the first half. He looked like a capable defender out there. Sims is also making me eat my words, which is great.
I’m surprised most by the play of Bridges. His game is so much about feel. You can see him trying to feel the game. It may come, I hope sooner than later. He is lazy with his passes, and with his 3 point form. I think he excels in the midrange because it is more about feel and flow. His defense is the same. It’s wonderful when he is in a groove, but looks very undisciplined when he is not. I know as a musician how it feels to be in a groove. But when I’m not I have to play it straight. I’m not worried, the intensity has to increase. I watched the Nets beat the Kings last night. They didn’t win with talent they won with intensity.
I think we know this S5 has a lot more intensity in them then they've shown. I almost hope they're simply biding their time. Also agree very much on Mikal / feel. Benjy spoke about that concept on today's pod.
Thanks, Jon, for the analysis. I agree with the growing concern about the defense as well as your postgame pod where you noted how this team too often fails to make opposing offenses uncomfortable. It’s been difficult to me to feel too excited about the team as they’ve yet to turn the tide and pull out any game because of its defensive effort. That’s simply not sustainable for a championship run. For context, the Pacers were historically great last season offensively but nobody took them seriously as a championship contender. And that Pacers team had much greater depth than the Knicks have. Hopefully the return of Precious and Deuce helps but the starters have to dig in.
your last point says it all - as a fan I can't in good conscience make a judgement on their defense when we are missing 3 huge pieces right now - especially on the defensive side with both Mitch and Deuce. If you think about what an 8 man rotation in the playoffs may look like those two plus Precious are the main 3 coming off the bench so how can we possibly make a call on what this team is now when roughly 40% of our rotation is not playing.
IDK, we have beaten only one team with a winning record (Phoenix) and we did it on a night when KD and Beal didn’t play. Our best win was probably against 7-7 Miami, although I’d listen to opposing arguments. Big offensive rating or not, we really haven’t accomplished anything so far.
But if your point is simply that it’s going to take a long time to get this right (as in way more than 20 games - see Milwaukee, Cleveland, etc.) then I’m right there with you.
I thought this might be a trap game because I went to Phoenix last year and it was a crap city and then a couple days off and Salt Lake? I mean...borrrrringggggg
16 games in & it's still very hard to watch & realize how bad this team is defensively. As a Knicks fan of 65+ years, Defense has been burned into every Knicks fan pysche, going back to Red's teams in the '60's! When the shots aren't falling (like Saturday), this team is in trouble. Outrebounded 52-40, only 12 trips to the foul line, the transformation to a team that completely relies on the 3 ball for it's offense is astounding when you think back just a few seasons & Thibs being criticized because the Knicks weren't shooting enough 3's! It seems that our fallback position is the return of Mitch & Precious, as they will help remedy the defensive shortcomings! Yes, if Mitch can stay healthy, he'll be a big help defensively, but can he? And, if they try to get him starter minutes & move KAT to the 4, how will that affect KAT's offense? (It seemed to in Minnesota) There are nights (like Phoenix) when everything seems right & the Chemistry is spot on! Yes, it's still relatively early & hopefully, many of these problems will work themselves out as this group spends more time on the court! I know I went into this season with very high expectations & now I'm wondering if they were indeed too high! Let's hope we start another winning streak tonight in Denver!
It’s not just KAT’s individual offense that takes a hit if he moves to the 4. The entire ecosystem only hits its collective ceiling when he’s at the 5.
JM, I know you remain steadfast against Towns at the four, but Minnesota never won until they shifted KAT to the four and had a strong defender at the 5 slot. How is this team going to be elite with Towns at the 5 and he continues his very poor defense.
I think we already see that Bridges and OG don’t overcome the poor defensive play at center.
PS—I don’t blame OG, he’s been all defense. But Bridges D had been awful.
I think you find a happy medium. Benjy and I discussed at length on yesterday's pod, would strongly encourage you give a listen. In short, exhaust every option, which they haven't even come close to doing.
I hate to draw this conclusion but losing IHart and Donte who were so much of what we were has hurt more than I inagined it could. This new 5 better figure it out quick on defense
The biggest issues is that Thibs has chosen not to run separate 9 or 10 man starter or bench units this year. When the game is being played at altitude and when KAT is literally airballing 3's, it's a hint that the starters may not have the legs to play major minutes in that particular game. We have no changeup without a different bench unit.
In the first half, Thibs put Pacome in for like 2 minutes and he played great on defense stonewalling Sexton but got yanked out again. We also have a problem with Mikal figuring out his role on the team. I continue to think things would be a lot better with a bench lineup of Payne, Mikal, Pacome, Kolek and Jericho. Precious and Mitch can replace Kolek and Jericho when they are ready to play.
What are your thoughts on my 27-point rule per quarter? If the Knicks manage to meet these micro-goals per quarter, will that be sufficient to maintain their laser-focused defense? To me, it appears to be more of a mental/internal motivation factor rather than a chemistry-based one, considering that Mikal and OG have consistently excelled on defense with various teams. Sims improved once Ariel gave some competition, and I think Mikal seems a similar dose of incentive to keep his starting position.
With shooting fluctuations the way they are, IDK if an arbitrary number per quarter is really the answer. I'm a big fan of zooming out (what's your rating) and then simply the eye test (we know when they're really giving a shit and/or executing)
I know there’s a lot of consternation right now and I get it. I hope everything falls into place soon. But it could be worse. We could be Giants Film School
Signed,
A Giants fan who just wants to enjoy football Sundays again
My condolences Chris
As a Giants fan, I’m where I was with the Knicks a few years ago. Besides wanting a new coach and GM, I want a new owner. Of course, Mara is going to sell as fast as Dolan is. At least Dolan hired a competent manager and has left him alone. So far.
Yes for now. Dolan is rite up there with Woody. Two Richie Rich's.
I am both a Giants and Jets fan so just add me on as one who wants to enjoy Football again.
For the past two years, the Knicks were a team other teams dreaded to play. And they were never out of a game because if they got seriously behind, you knew they’d scratch, claw and bite to get back into it.
I miss that team. And I really, really hope Thibs can figure out a way to bring that back.
It was so frustrating to watch that game because every possession showed the Knicks lack of length. Markkanen must have heard the noise around KAT being the most dangerous big man because he lit us up from everywhere. The Knicks lack of toughness showed in this game. I also thought the referees were on Utahs side because there were a few Knick possessions that I thought ended with our guys getting fouled. We clearly need another ball handler out there with JB because when teams focus the attack on him we are limited in shot creation. Hopefully we get to 10 wins before we get to 10 losses.
Idk about toughness but they certainly don’t make opposing offenses uncomfortable nearly enough.
How many 4s have the length to bother Markkanen? He's great at the catch and shoot but not going to hit 62% every game. People had hands in his face but he was locked in. This was a shooting luck game.
Sam Presti will pay for his crimes!!
Don’t get why people are saying Precious/Mitch/Deuce is what we should wait for before commenting on the defense. The team’s starting five is the end all be all for this team. THAT unit, by themselves, needs to figure out how to play competitive/tough/gritty/consistent defense or else we will also be a sugar-rush, offensive happy team going nowhere.
Hopefully Bridges getting benched is a wake up call. I give Thibs a lot of credit for doing that.
On a brief note, I was very impressed with Kolek’s minutes in the first half. He looked like a capable defender out there. Sims is also making me eat my words, which is great.
Enjoyed Kolek's minutes as well. Deserved a mention. My bad.
ANd 10000% agree that the S5 HAS to get it together. If they don't, nothing else matters
I’m surprised most by the play of Bridges. His game is so much about feel. You can see him trying to feel the game. It may come, I hope sooner than later. He is lazy with his passes, and with his 3 point form. I think he excels in the midrange because it is more about feel and flow. His defense is the same. It’s wonderful when he is in a groove, but looks very undisciplined when he is not. I know as a musician how it feels to be in a groove. But when I’m not I have to play it straight. I’m not worried, the intensity has to increase. I watched the Nets beat the Kings last night. They didn’t win with talent they won with intensity.
I think we know this S5 has a lot more intensity in them then they've shown. I almost hope they're simply biding their time. Also agree very much on Mikal / feel. Benjy spoke about that concept on today's pod.
I’m a bit worried that the Nets really stole the Knicks blind — five first round picks for a guy who thus far, looks like Tim Thomas Part 2.
Thanks, Jon, for the analysis. I agree with the growing concern about the defense as well as your postgame pod where you noted how this team too often fails to make opposing offenses uncomfortable. It’s been difficult to me to feel too excited about the team as they’ve yet to turn the tide and pull out any game because of its defensive effort. That’s simply not sustainable for a championship run. For context, the Pacers were historically great last season offensively but nobody took them seriously as a championship contender. And that Pacers team had much greater depth than the Knicks have. Hopefully the return of Precious and Deuce helps but the starters have to dig in.
your last point says it all - as a fan I can't in good conscience make a judgement on their defense when we are missing 3 huge pieces right now - especially on the defensive side with both Mitch and Deuce. If you think about what an 8 man rotation in the playoffs may look like those two plus Precious are the main 3 coming off the bench so how can we possibly make a call on what this team is now when roughly 40% of our rotation is not playing.
I thought the Knicks would be 8-12 after 20 before righting the ship. I’m happy
IDK, we have beaten only one team with a winning record (Phoenix) and we did it on a night when KD and Beal didn’t play. Our best win was probably against 7-7 Miami, although I’d listen to opposing arguments. Big offensive rating or not, we really haven’t accomplished anything so far.
But if your point is simply that it’s going to take a long time to get this right (as in way more than 20 games - see Milwaukee, Cleveland, etc.) then I’m right there with you.
I thought this might be a trap game because I went to Phoenix last year and it was a crap city and then a couple days off and Salt Lake? I mean...borrrrringggggg
LOL
Not worried yet....lets see in January...Agree Bridges needs to find his role...
16 games in & it's still very hard to watch & realize how bad this team is defensively. As a Knicks fan of 65+ years, Defense has been burned into every Knicks fan pysche, going back to Red's teams in the '60's! When the shots aren't falling (like Saturday), this team is in trouble. Outrebounded 52-40, only 12 trips to the foul line, the transformation to a team that completely relies on the 3 ball for it's offense is astounding when you think back just a few seasons & Thibs being criticized because the Knicks weren't shooting enough 3's! It seems that our fallback position is the return of Mitch & Precious, as they will help remedy the defensive shortcomings! Yes, if Mitch can stay healthy, he'll be a big help defensively, but can he? And, if they try to get him starter minutes & move KAT to the 4, how will that affect KAT's offense? (It seemed to in Minnesota) There are nights (like Phoenix) when everything seems right & the Chemistry is spot on! Yes, it's still relatively early & hopefully, many of these problems will work themselves out as this group spends more time on the court! I know I went into this season with very high expectations & now I'm wondering if they were indeed too high! Let's hope we start another winning streak tonight in Denver!
It’s not just KAT’s individual offense that takes a hit if he moves to the 4. The entire ecosystem only hits its collective ceiling when he’s at the 5.
JM, I know you remain steadfast against Towns at the four, but Minnesota never won until they shifted KAT to the four and had a strong defender at the 5 slot. How is this team going to be elite with Towns at the 5 and he continues his very poor defense.
I think we already see that Bridges and OG don’t overcome the poor defensive play at center.
PS—I don’t blame OG, he’s been all defense. But Bridges D had been awful.
I think you find a happy medium. Benjy and I discussed at length on yesterday's pod, would strongly encourage you give a listen. In short, exhaust every option, which they haven't even come close to doing.
I will absolutely listen to— I don’t miss any of your pods.
Oh, and happy 10th anniversary! It’s a big one, hope you have something special planned for your bride.
Thank you! Yes, we do...grandma and grandpa will be watching both kids. Only a night out, but it'll be a special one.
I hate to draw this conclusion but losing IHart and Donte who were so much of what we were has hurt more than I inagined it could. This new 5 better figure it out quick on defense
The biggest issues is that Thibs has chosen not to run separate 9 or 10 man starter or bench units this year. When the game is being played at altitude and when KAT is literally airballing 3's, it's a hint that the starters may not have the legs to play major minutes in that particular game. We have no changeup without a different bench unit.
In the first half, Thibs put Pacome in for like 2 minutes and he played great on defense stonewalling Sexton but got yanked out again. We also have a problem with Mikal figuring out his role on the team. I continue to think things would be a lot better with a bench lineup of Payne, Mikal, Pacome, Kolek and Jericho. Precious and Mitch can replace Kolek and Jericho when they are ready to play.
What are your thoughts on my 27-point rule per quarter? If the Knicks manage to meet these micro-goals per quarter, will that be sufficient to maintain their laser-focused defense? To me, it appears to be more of a mental/internal motivation factor rather than a chemistry-based one, considering that Mikal and OG have consistently excelled on defense with various teams. Sims improved once Ariel gave some competition, and I think Mikal seems a similar dose of incentive to keep his starting position.
With shooting fluctuations the way they are, IDK if an arbitrary number per quarter is really the answer. I'm a big fan of zooming out (what's your rating) and then simply the eye test (we know when they're really giving a shit and/or executing)
LoL I hear you - But....math??!?! 🫠