Good to take care of business. I’m still very alarmed by the wide open threes, largely from the corner, that we continue to give up.
We were all clamoring for Bridges for 3 years because we knew the skill set and how he was a perfect fit. Obviously the price tag was insane, but watching tonight I really think I get the vision which allowed them to give up the entire stockpile. With the spacing we have, that mid range, which is as automatic as anything I’ve seen, is pretty much there whenever we want it. I think we knew from Brooklyn that he’s mastered that shot, but I don’t think I would’ve been able to project what that would like like on volume with the type of space we have now. It’s exciting.
Those open 3's will lessen in number once guys lock in and start making timely rotations, not to mention digging in on closeouts, winning the point of attack, etc.
He still has to play better D regardless. The fact we can’t let OG roam bc he had to guard Cam instead of Bridges is the larger issue. The auto midrange is for sure an unexpected weapon on offense though
Also Josh Hart putting up 7 threes is very encouraging. If keeps throwing them up JB will eventually get some 5 out-ish spacing. BK obvi (as many teams have) used Hart’s man as a spy to prevent any JB drives. If he Hart keeps shooting (and hopefully hitting at a decent rate) we should see the unlocked Brunson soon (esp when he remembers how to shoot 3s)
- I didn’t pay close enough attention, but were they hedging / switching no matter who the screener was? I was wondering how much of it had to do with the presence of the world’s most expensive non-factor, Ben Simmons.
- Towns’ passing is easily the most pleasant surprise of the season for me.
- What on earth was Cam Thomas doing on the first Towns-to-OG clip lol?
- Cam Payne has no conscience. Last night it was a positive, but he took some terrible shots. Better not become a habit.
- Josh Hart 3-7 from three. I know it’s not his strength, but I LOVED the willingness to let them fly.
I was thinking the same about Payne. Shooting 40% overall , 39% from 3. Frankly, I thought it was worse. I do though like his motor and his defense. And he is also averaging 3 assists in only 15 minutes per game. So that isn't bad either.
Spot on with Hart as well as Payne. As for Cam - that’s a slight worry for me, dude has always been a bit of a chucker. But just looking way down the line to later in the season I’d imagine we are looking at an 8-man rotation in tight games which means the 5 starters plus Deuce, Precious and another center leaving Payne on the outside looking in.
Biggest takeaway from Huk v Sims is just that we’re having that convo at all despite being short handed. Hopefully means Thibs understands KATs value is as a C, and portends that there will not be a Mitch/KAT (or Precious/KAT perhaps) lineups
it's funny, for as much as Thibs has the value of this old school defensive curmudgeon, if you listen to his pressers and just see how he gives minutes, he knows the value of an elite offense as much as anyone. KAT will be primarily a C for as long as he's coach, IMO
I’ve been struggling to understand the significant pessimism of the fanbase, specifically the lamenting of how much last year’s team is missed. To me, it has to be more than on-court metrics. Yes, we rebound less but are the Knicks *really* lacking in grit compared to last year? I don’t think so. I don’t see blatant lack of effort or anything like that. JB even said post-game on Friday “we’re gonna fight, that’s our identity.” It seems some fans seem to disagree.
One hypothesis: as much frustration as Julius brought through the years, did we still enjoy rooting for him because he wasn’t “supposed” to succeed? Kind of similar to the sentiment of “we can make fun of our guy, but he’s our guy no one else can.”
Is the difference this year that we have perceived expectations of success compared to before? Is the underdog title gone now with KAT in the mix? Curious to hear anyone else’s thoughts!
Brian, I could write a book about this topic (and might try to one day). When and why fans do certain types of fanning is utterly fascinating to me and I think what makes the answer complicated is that there are a bunch of overlapping factors that at times contradict one another.
Brian, as one of those fans who was unhappy with the KAT deal and has been vocal about missing last year's team (although I'm past that now and focused on this year's team!), there was something unique and special about last year's team. It's hard to put a finger on it but they reminded many of the beloved 90's Knicks.
They were underdogs, they had no superstars, but they fought like hell and and they were never out of a game. But like the 90's Knicks, they had a cap on their potential success. This year's team does not have that cap, and as Jonathan says, this is a three-four year team gunning for a title. There are small moves still to be made as the bench (a strength the past two years) is very thin. Hope this helps.
Makes perfect sense! And confirms my suspicion. It’s definitely an adjustment rooting for this iteration of the squad compared to last years. I’m grateful for the memories from last year and am simultaneously optimistic and excited to see what this group can do. Both of those things can be true!
The defense. The starting lineup has a negative NET rating, purely because its the third worst lineup combination in the NBA on defense. Miami's starting five is the worst. Eye-test wise, the defense was *ugly* against the Rockets, Hawks, and Bulls -- three teams we expect to be much better than.
I think New Yorkers generally enjoy teams with a strong defensive identity, and I think those expectations were (are) still there. Doesn't mean we won't get there either.
On Thibs playing Jericho Sims and Sims showing he earned that trust ~ Thibs is wisely continuing to develop Sims and making sure Sims is confident about himself and that confidence translating to results on the court in game time. Just saw Indiana’s three centers are out with injuries (two out for the season with Achilles injuries) and Pacers signed Moses Brown. Knicks need all their centers. No point in deflating Sims unnecessarily, when Hukporti will have his chances to play during the long season!
I was trying to remember how long it took the Knicks to adjust to the Bellamy/DeBusschere deal. Dave was acquired in the 68-69 season; the team finished 3rd in the East and lost to the Celts in the Eastern Finals. But, the next Season they won it all. Assuming a healthy Knick squad, big assumption, who this team is now [in the middle of November] is just a shadow of what they can be in April, May, and June. Whatever the cuisine, Creole Gumbo or Italian Marinara, you got to let the sauce cook. Keep the faith. Enjoy the journey.
We can certainly debate the minutes distribution but my sense is that part of Thibs’ calculus is that he wants to win the last two games before the road trip to get to two games over .500. Otherwise, there’d be a real possibility of being under .500 after a five-game trip, and 19 games into the season.
The minutes were concerning, which others alluded to. Thibs will ultimately get judged by the playoffs but I am unsure how anyone can say playing guys as much as he is is conducive to winning in May/June. The seasons a marathon, not a sprint.
I really hope we can look back at the Bridges’ block as the thing that got him going. As someone said, it should be Bridges on Cam & the fact we couldn’t do that is a bit annoying.
I also think while BK is feisty, we had a very clear talent advantage. Hopefully we win tonight because the road trip will provide a more accurate barometer of where we’re at: PHX, DEN, and DAL
Nice win. Nets play tough and Cam Thomas is very very good. I really enjoyed watching Sims and Dadiet last night. Great to see the rookie get time in the middle of a tough battle and he looked pretty solid on D and Sims seemed to exert himself on the boards a bit more. Maybe he's getting it but also there wasn't really a center playing on the other team so it might be situational. How many games is this now that Bridges, OG and KAT all have 20? This definitely looks good. Also Cam Payne...I remember him torching us one game a few years back...he's very good. ps: Nets were getting every call as if the refs were trying to keep them in the game. Jump, flail, scream, foul. Anyways...game ended very very nice.
Team is starting to come together. Agree 100% on the passing. Teams have premised their defense on guarding Jalen 96 feet and double teaming him. He is capable of still beating that but he should get much better looks if he gives up the ball more to let other guys initiate. It will find its way back to him.
OG looking very reminiscent of San Antonio era Kawhi. Couldn't be more excited about his continued growth.
Pacome's play is very encouraging. He's a big wing who can play defense who is a natural shooter. He's 6'8". OG is 6'7". Bridges is 6'6" and Hart is 6'4". Fred Katz tweeted "This was great defense, but I promise you Thibs was just as excited about a play a few possessions earlier when Dadiet executed a perfect closeout to run his man off the 3-point line. His team defense has been very good tonight, too." Early days. But, this could be potential game changer to get the wingstop guys onto reasonable minutes. I like Precious defense but he doesn't have a proven 3 point shot so he really needs to be the backup 5 not a wing.
Sorry Jon, can't get there with the Sims love. He was awful in the first half. Look at the comments in the chat. He finished the game -4 with 2 points and 1 block. I have no idea what Thibs is talking about when he says Sims defends the rim. In 174 minutes in 13 games, Sims has 5 blocks That's 1 block per 36 minutes. Hukporti has 8 blocks in 36 minutes in 6 games ... 4.6 blocks per minute. Jericho is just 6'10" while Hukporti is 7'0". Gotta keep a buck a buck.
Not thrilled last night. Hart didn't sit whole second half.Should have been a blowout. Sims was a plus but wanted to see Hokpurti and Kolek. Defense improving. Team gave me agita. Sorry Johnathan.
I still don't like seeing Hart and Bridges playing so many minutes per game. Am I wrong or r we the only team does this. I brought this up before, however Jonathan said we shudn't question Thibs based on his track record. I tend to disagree.
A Thibs coached team has never been to the NBA finals and how much has to do with overuse of players is unknown. His Bulls teams had the talent but suffered one devastating injury loss and many other playoff games lost to injury.
If Mitch, OG, Hart and Jalen didn’t get hurt they def beat Indy and give the Celts a run for their money.
How many of all these injuries have to do with too many minutes we will never know. What we do know is that if a guy plays 40m rather than 35m, there are 5 extra minutes on the floor to get hurt.
I thought I saw a glimmer of hope last week when hokpurti, dadiet and kolek were used. I know Hart is difficult to replace this year especially until Brunson finds his groove, but the draft was wonderful in my mind and he's got extra bodies to take some of the pressure off. I was encouraged by BRIDGES play last night. I thought it was the first night. He looked truly comfortable.
Fellas - not to be respectful - but it’s game 13 of the season so let’s ease up a little. First time this year Thibs did this and I’m sure not having Deuce was the reason. We will have him back soon as well as Precious. It will work itself out.
Also no disrespect to the nets. I think they played well, but we still should've blown them away and not made it even close and 10 points to me is close.
I decided to look up who was the last team to have all 5 of their starters score 20 or more points each. I figured it would be rare. It turns out the Lakers did it last season.
Good to take care of business. I’m still very alarmed by the wide open threes, largely from the corner, that we continue to give up.
We were all clamoring for Bridges for 3 years because we knew the skill set and how he was a perfect fit. Obviously the price tag was insane, but watching tonight I really think I get the vision which allowed them to give up the entire stockpile. With the spacing we have, that mid range, which is as automatic as anything I’ve seen, is pretty much there whenever we want it. I think we knew from Brooklyn that he’s mastered that shot, but I don’t think I would’ve been able to project what that would like like on volume with the type of space we have now. It’s exciting.
Those open 3's will lessen in number once guys lock in and start making timely rotations, not to mention digging in on closeouts, winning the point of attack, etc.
He still has to play better D regardless. The fact we can’t let OG roam bc he had to guard Cam instead of Bridges is the larger issue. The auto midrange is for sure an unexpected weapon on offense though
Also Josh Hart putting up 7 threes is very encouraging. If keeps throwing them up JB will eventually get some 5 out-ish spacing. BK obvi (as many teams have) used Hart’s man as a spy to prevent any JB drives. If he Hart keeps shooting (and hopefully hitting at a decent rate) we should see the unlocked Brunson soon (esp when he remembers how to shoot 3s)
Some sporadic thoughts:
- I didn’t pay close enough attention, but were they hedging / switching no matter who the screener was? I was wondering how much of it had to do with the presence of the world’s most expensive non-factor, Ben Simmons.
- Towns’ passing is easily the most pleasant surprise of the season for me.
- What on earth was Cam Thomas doing on the first Towns-to-OG clip lol?
- Cam Payne has no conscience. Last night it was a positive, but he took some terrible shots. Better not become a habit.
- Josh Hart 3-7 from three. I know it’s not his strength, but I LOVED the willingness to let them fly.
I brought up the same exact Simmons point on our text thread last night, and I wouldn't be surprised if that had something to do with it.
I was thinking the same about Payne. Shooting 40% overall , 39% from 3. Frankly, I thought it was worse. I do though like his motor and his defense. And he is also averaging 3 assists in only 15 minutes per game. So that isn't bad either.
Agreed. Have zero issue with the other parts of his game. But pulling up from like 30 is not it lol
Spot on with Hart as well as Payne. As for Cam - that’s a slight worry for me, dude has always been a bit of a chucker. But just looking way down the line to later in the season I’d imagine we are looking at an 8-man rotation in tight games which means the 5 starters plus Deuce, Precious and another center leaving Payne on the outside looking in.
Biggest takeaway from Huk v Sims is just that we’re having that convo at all despite being short handed. Hopefully means Thibs understands KATs value is as a C, and portends that there will not be a Mitch/KAT (or Precious/KAT perhaps) lineups
it's funny, for as much as Thibs has the value of this old school defensive curmudgeon, if you listen to his pressers and just see how he gives minutes, he knows the value of an elite offense as much as anyone. KAT will be primarily a C for as long as he's coach, IMO
I’ve been struggling to understand the significant pessimism of the fanbase, specifically the lamenting of how much last year’s team is missed. To me, it has to be more than on-court metrics. Yes, we rebound less but are the Knicks *really* lacking in grit compared to last year? I don’t think so. I don’t see blatant lack of effort or anything like that. JB even said post-game on Friday “we’re gonna fight, that’s our identity.” It seems some fans seem to disagree.
One hypothesis: as much frustration as Julius brought through the years, did we still enjoy rooting for him because he wasn’t “supposed” to succeed? Kind of similar to the sentiment of “we can make fun of our guy, but he’s our guy no one else can.”
Is the difference this year that we have perceived expectations of success compared to before? Is the underdog title gone now with KAT in the mix? Curious to hear anyone else’s thoughts!
Brian, I could write a book about this topic (and might try to one day). When and why fans do certain types of fanning is utterly fascinating to me and I think what makes the answer complicated is that there are a bunch of overlapping factors that at times contradict one another.
I look forward to harassing you to pursue this project until it comes to fruition! Sounds like a great documentary too
Brian, as one of those fans who was unhappy with the KAT deal and has been vocal about missing last year's team (although I'm past that now and focused on this year's team!), there was something unique and special about last year's team. It's hard to put a finger on it but they reminded many of the beloved 90's Knicks.
They were underdogs, they had no superstars, but they fought like hell and and they were never out of a game. But like the 90's Knicks, they had a cap on their potential success. This year's team does not have that cap, and as Jonathan says, this is a three-four year team gunning for a title. There are small moves still to be made as the bench (a strength the past two years) is very thin. Hope this helps.
Makes perfect sense! And confirms my suspicion. It’s definitely an adjustment rooting for this iteration of the squad compared to last years. I’m grateful for the memories from last year and am simultaneously optimistic and excited to see what this group can do. Both of those things can be true!
The defense. The starting lineup has a negative NET rating, purely because its the third worst lineup combination in the NBA on defense. Miami's starting five is the worst. Eye-test wise, the defense was *ugly* against the Rockets, Hawks, and Bulls -- three teams we expect to be much better than.
I think New Yorkers generally enjoy teams with a strong defensive identity, and I think those expectations were (are) still there. Doesn't mean we won't get there either.
Very well said, and that makes a lot of sense. I agree in the belief that surely it will only continue to improve
On Thibs playing Jericho Sims and Sims showing he earned that trust ~ Thibs is wisely continuing to develop Sims and making sure Sims is confident about himself and that confidence translating to results on the court in game time. Just saw Indiana’s three centers are out with injuries (two out for the season with Achilles injuries) and Pacers signed Moses Brown. Knicks need all their centers. No point in deflating Sims unnecessarily, when Hukporti will have his chances to play during the long season!
Love this point.
I was trying to remember how long it took the Knicks to adjust to the Bellamy/DeBusschere deal. Dave was acquired in the 68-69 season; the team finished 3rd in the East and lost to the Celts in the Eastern Finals. But, the next Season they won it all. Assuming a healthy Knick squad, big assumption, who this team is now [in the middle of November] is just a shadow of what they can be in April, May, and June. Whatever the cuisine, Creole Gumbo or Italian Marinara, you got to let the sauce cook. Keep the faith. Enjoy the journey.
that sauce analogy hit home.
We can certainly debate the minutes distribution but my sense is that part of Thibs’ calculus is that he wants to win the last two games before the road trip to get to two games over .500. Otherwise, there’d be a real possibility of being under .500 after a five-game trip, and 19 games into the season.
The minutes were concerning, which others alluded to. Thibs will ultimately get judged by the playoffs but I am unsure how anyone can say playing guys as much as he is is conducive to winning in May/June. The seasons a marathon, not a sprint.
I really hope we can look back at the Bridges’ block as the thing that got him going. As someone said, it should be Bridges on Cam & the fact we couldn’t do that is a bit annoying.
I also think while BK is feisty, we had a very clear talent advantage. Hopefully we win tonight because the road trip will provide a more accurate barometer of where we’re at: PHX, DEN, and DAL
Nice win. Nets play tough and Cam Thomas is very very good. I really enjoyed watching Sims and Dadiet last night. Great to see the rookie get time in the middle of a tough battle and he looked pretty solid on D and Sims seemed to exert himself on the boards a bit more. Maybe he's getting it but also there wasn't really a center playing on the other team so it might be situational. How many games is this now that Bridges, OG and KAT all have 20? This definitely looks good. Also Cam Payne...I remember him torching us one game a few years back...he's very good. ps: Nets were getting every call as if the refs were trying to keep them in the game. Jump, flail, scream, foul. Anyways...game ended very very nice.
Team is starting to come together. Agree 100% on the passing. Teams have premised their defense on guarding Jalen 96 feet and double teaming him. He is capable of still beating that but he should get much better looks if he gives up the ball more to let other guys initiate. It will find its way back to him.
OG looking very reminiscent of San Antonio era Kawhi. Couldn't be more excited about his continued growth.
Pacome's play is very encouraging. He's a big wing who can play defense who is a natural shooter. He's 6'8". OG is 6'7". Bridges is 6'6" and Hart is 6'4". Fred Katz tweeted "This was great defense, but I promise you Thibs was just as excited about a play a few possessions earlier when Dadiet executed a perfect closeout to run his man off the 3-point line. His team defense has been very good tonight, too." Early days. But, this could be potential game changer to get the wingstop guys onto reasonable minutes. I like Precious defense but he doesn't have a proven 3 point shot so he really needs to be the backup 5 not a wing.
Sorry Jon, can't get there with the Sims love. He was awful in the first half. Look at the comments in the chat. He finished the game -4 with 2 points and 1 block. I have no idea what Thibs is talking about when he says Sims defends the rim. In 174 minutes in 13 games, Sims has 5 blocks That's 1 block per 36 minutes. Hukporti has 8 blocks in 36 minutes in 6 games ... 4.6 blocks per minute. Jericho is just 6'10" while Hukporti is 7'0". Gotta keep a buck a buck.
stats don't lie Andrew: https://x.com/BenRitholtzNBA/status/1858573893641949373
and one more for good measure: https://x.com/BenRitholtzNBA/status/1858575179506741376
sometimes convenient narratives and the whims of impatient fans have to take a backseat to reality.
Fascinating numbers . .
Great post Andrew! Agree on Pacome . . .plus he is only 19 so to show these precocious skills before he is 20, wow!
Figured it would take the team about 30 games to have some chemistry with 40% of the starting lineup being new and the bench being hurt and not deep.
I know Thibs is coaching for wins but he needs to try to further reduce minutes for the starters so they are not burnt out by January.
Am excited to watch the team further gel and hope Deuce and Precious are back soon.
Not thrilled last night. Hart didn't sit whole second half.Should have been a blowout. Sims was a plus but wanted to see Hokpurti and Kolek. Defense improving. Team gave me agita. Sorry Johnathan.
I say this as a friend Mike: it's gonna be a LONG season if you don't start to relax on some of this stuff.
Remember: part of why guys like Josh and Mikal are here is because they want to play 48 minutes every night. It's baked into their value.
I still don't like seeing Hart and Bridges playing so many minutes per game. Am I wrong or r we the only team does this. I brought this up before, however Jonathan said we shudn't question Thibs based on his track record. I tend to disagree.
And when Hart can't lift his arms in the playoffs , you may be right.
A Thibs coached team has never been to the NBA finals and how much has to do with overuse of players is unknown. His Bulls teams had the talent but suffered one devastating injury loss and many other playoff games lost to injury.
If Mitch, OG, Hart and Jalen didn’t get hurt they def beat Indy and give the Celts a run for their money.
How many of all these injuries have to do with too many minutes we will never know. What we do know is that if a guy plays 40m rather than 35m, there are 5 extra minutes on the floor to get hurt.
Sorry JM.
I thought I saw a glimmer of hope last week when hokpurti, dadiet and kolek were used. I know Hart is difficult to replace this year especially until Brunson finds his groove, but the draft was wonderful in my mind and he's got extra bodies to take some of the pressure off. I was encouraged by BRIDGES play last night. I thought it was the first night. He looked truly comfortable.
Correct and perhaps Bridges and Brunson as well .
Nets played their hearts out. Playing very scrappy this year.
Fellas - not to be respectful - but it’s game 13 of the season so let’s ease up a little. First time this year Thibs did this and I’m sure not having Deuce was the reason. We will have him back soon as well as Precious. It will work itself out.
Also no disrespect to the nets. I think they played well, but we still should've blown them away and not made it even close and 10 points to me is close.
Bridges was a +16 in 45 minutes. Just saying!
Nice to restore big brother status over the Nets last night.
Love the 33 assists on 43 makes (especially the 6 each from KAT and Payne)
Unfortunate that it took 46 min from Hart, 45 from Bridges and 40 from OG ahead of a back-to-back.
Would nice to see Huk starting tonight if KAT is out (and Sims bringing energy from the bench again)
Any word on when Precious is back?
no on precious, sadly. but he's been making progress as I understand it
Sims doesn't bring energy though
I am not a Sims fan, but did see energy and engagement on the defensive end last night (assumes Thibs did too or he would have been pulled for Huk)
I decided to look up who was the last team to have all 5 of their starters score 20 or more points each. I figured it would be rare. It turns out the Lakers did it last season.
Really??? I don't remember that happening. Great stat.