I keep reminding myself we are 12-5 against teams not named Boston or Milwaukee and if we are anywhere near that pace for 82 games we're going to be fine.
On a humorous note, I read a Celtics fan's take on the game (I'm sure we've all been over-the-top too). His take was that IQ is always a threat for 50 in Boston, IHART intimates the Celtics, the Knicks are the dirtiest team in the history of sports ( been hearing that from Celtics fans since the Holzman era), and the refs hate the Celtics. Plus the Celtics are likely to crumble if an opponent glares at them. So I guess no matter how well your team is playing there's someone who thinks the sky is falling.
I love this comment Tim. Also, every fan base wants to fire their coach 85 % of the time.
But seriously, it's a reminder of how good we have it. We lost because they hit a bunch of 3's and we feel like the whole thing is flawed. They won because they hit a bunch of threes and feel like they got lucky to some extent. Perspective is everything.
It’s actually 12-4 against everyone but the Celtics or Bucks. It’s just that those teams have felt so unbeatable that’s tough. And we still have five more games to go against them.
Not meant to be a correction - just sort of surprised by it. It doesn’t *feel* like we’re 12-4 against everyone else. The vibes are not immaculate at the moment.
I doesn't feel that way at all. And don't forget Minnesota, who beat us on the last game of a 5 game road trip and currently has the best record in basketball.
After awhile, it gets very painful to watch the Knicks defensive strategy as in today’s world, almost every team has a couple of guys who can shoot threes consistently--especially when no one is defending them.
The “drop coverage” defensive might have been a very potent defensive 5+ years ago when the three-point shot wasn’t so pervasive and so pervasively accurate.
And as is easy to note, the better teams, the Boston’s and Milwaukee’s of the world make mincemeat of drop coverage. If the Knicks want to get to the second round this season or maybe even into the first round, they will need to change the defensive philosophy. We also know that Thibs is so stubborn that he probably won’t change the defensive scheme which leaves me wondering whether this is Thibs last season on the bench.
It is also clear that there is a large talent gap between the Knicks and the top 10 teams in the league. All in all, a pretty depressing stretch of games and after tonight, the schedule gets really rough until early January.
The Knicks drop coverage scheme works well against teams that don't have a bunch of knock down 3pt shooters. League average 3 pt shooting is 35% (and that's inclusive of everyone shooting well above that mark) - Thibs' scheme to clog the middle and force 3s is a viable defense against most teams. Unfortunately for the Knicks, the Bucks and Boston have 3 point shooters who will knock down open 3s and the Knicks don't yet have a counter. In those games, their only chance to win is to have a great offensive game and limit 2nd chance shots. The difference in the Knicks ability to win the last two games was 2nd half Offense - they were in both games in the first half and couldn't match the Bucks and Celtics offense in the 1/2 halves of those games. The Knicks don't have a top 10 player on the team but IMO it's a stretch to say that there is such a large talent gap between the Knicks and the NBAs top teams. The Knicks have one of the most top to bottom talented teams in the league. I'm no where near Obi or Cam hive but two players who couldn't start for us last year because of the talent in front of them are now starting for their new respective teams. How many teams are we hearing about would have IQ as their starting PG if he leaves? Almost every player in the Knicks 1 -9 current roster would be considered an excellent acquisition for any new team they go to and expected to play a prominent role (not be a JAG) on those squads.
For all of the talk about needing a top player / Superstar - how many "Superstars" currently playing have 1 or more Chips on their resume? Brooklyn had 3 Superstars and blew up, the Bucks got bounced last year with Giannis, Embid was the 2023 league MVP and got bounced in the Semis, Curry got bounced by LA last year. We talk about KD but outside of his run with Golden State - what other rings has he won? How'd Phoenix do with Booker last year? Superstars win games but TEAMS win Championships.
I think there are a lot more strong three point shooting teams than the Bucks and Celtics. Teams like Phoenix, Philly, Dallas, Miami, Denver are all teams that will shoot you out of the gym if you leave them wide open. And my point wasn’t that the Knicks stink. They can beat 2/3rds of the league teams on any night. The problem is I’d like to see them continue to progress as a team and right now, I see them in a dog fight for the 5th through 9th slots and getting to round two looks increasingly difficult.
And in terms of talent, you are correct in that they are very deep team in terms of B talent but outside of Brunson, they really don’t have much in the way of A talent. They have a high number of guys who play the 2/3 at an above average rate but they do not have a second star at any position let alone superstar.
I suppose my main point is, are fans happy with winning 42-48 games, maybe avoiding the play-in with a small shot at round two which with this team, we can do for years or do we want a team that will compete with a title? I know it’s a bit of a rhetorical question but that was my main point in the previous email.
At some point, Rose and his administrators will need to take some big swings not just improving on the margins.
Totally agree that there are a few teams beyond the Bucks and Celtics that shoot higher than league average from 3, but to your point the defensive scheme they employ can beat most teams any given night (which is why they rank top 10 defensively). I challenge the point (and this is strictly my opinion right or wrong) of needing to change the defensive philosophy of Thibs and/or replace him as a coach in order for this team to progress. Thibs will occasionally change his defensive approach from drop to switches (as he did in the last game) but he can only work with what he has. One of the things we rarely hear from the fan base (this is not just a Knicks fan thing) is what defensive adjustments they would put in place with this roster that would be better than the drop and/or switch coverages he currently employs. This ain't NBA2k where instead of pressing "X,Y, Up, Down" buttons we press "Y,Y, Down, Down" (I don't play the games so I have no idea what I'm talking about with the buttons but the point remains 😂) and all of a sudden closeouts work, we disrupt passing lanes and get steals.
Progression is not always a linear process and how you view progression is dependent on how you focus the lens. If your focus is these first 20 games, you might say they are not improving and maybe even regressing. If your focus is on the past couple of years you might say the Knicks went from a team that was not a playoff team a few years ago to a team that almost made the ECF. If they don't make it to or past the 2nd round this year, it doesn't necessarily make it a bad year if they have both the pieces they need to advance and a valid plan to make changes after looking at the playing data, a plan of improvement, the landscape of the draft and FA opportunities and trade opportunities that actually make the team better - not just a funner team to watch. Not to pick on Obi but he was a very fun player to watch but he absolutely did not make the team better.
It's two different things to say that there is a large talent gap vs saying we have a high number of guys who play at an above average rate but no A level talent. That was the point I was trying to make and it sounds like we agree there.
Rose and Team in the front office and Thibs on the Coaching bench have made a bunch of progress. Even the most die-hard Knicks haters no longer reference us as the LOL Knicks - now the argument is the team is just Mid. IMO they have shown enough that I have faith in them to continue to let them work. Franchise turnarounds that look like "One or Two Year" turnarounds are never just that. The base ingredients have to be in place before that jump to Chip contender status can be made and if you look at the improvements from the Phil Jackson / Fizdale Knicks to the Leon Rose /Thibs Knicks - I'd say there's been more than a little progress made and plenty of room for optimism.
I get so up and down with every game (um, ok, every possession). So, I don't know how I'd handle it after 2 years. If we got ONE 50 win year in that time, maybe I could hold out for 4 years.
You got me Phil on a number of points. I suppose that I look at the progress since Dolan fired Checketts rather than the Jackson/Fizdale Knicks.
I’ve had season tickets since 1986 and my patience is just about shot.
While hoping the Knicks become a title contender anytime soon is probably a pipe dream I’d love to get back to the Checketts’ Knicks of the 90’s when the second round was a gimmie and the conference finals was really when the playoffs started.
I am happy though that they are no longer the “lol Knicks.” That period was way too long and way too ugly.
DEFCON 5 is when everything is normal in the world, and there is no reason why we would have to even think about using our nuclear arsenal. DEFCON 1 is when we're starting a nuclear war. It's a countdown — a fact I learned from seeing the movie WarGames many, many, many times as a kid.
Also, it feels like our schemes on both ends are built more than ever around the presence of Mitch. Curious to see how we fare without him, for however long he's out or hobbled.
War Games is one of those movies that came along a *tad* too early for me to catch the nostalgia wave after the fact (I was born in '83) and I don't think it ever caught on in pop culture to the level of Back to the Future or Revenge of the Nerds (the first 2 80's movies to pop into my brain on this fine Monday), so I missed out. All that being said, I knew DEFCON 1 was the worst and plum forgot. My default is always that 5 is the worst but I'm usually good about catching myself. Sigh.
Excellent breakdown Sir! I didn't listen to the Celtics postgame but the game clips and your detailed analysis describes exactly what Dame talked about as the Buck's scouting report on the Knicks prior to their IST game. The sky is definitely not falling - it feels like a large portion of the fan base has the unrealistic expectation of Chip or bust every year with every game proving to be confirmation bias of their expectations (team sucks - fire the coach & blow it up or we got a squad of dawgs and we're this close to getting to the finals). This IMO was an excellent "this is where we are & what we need to improve" newsletter.
I think we have most of the pieces we need under Thibs (I operate under the assumption that Thibs will continue to be our coach over the next few years) to execute his defensive game plan but this team IMO needs a bit more length and athleticism with the ability for the starting 5 to play at a faster pace on both sides of the ball to push us forward. I think the Nova 3, Robinson, I Hart and maybe Deuce (even though he doesn't get the time at the moment) are the core that Rose will build around and some or all of RJ, JR, Grimes & IQ will need to be moved and replaced with more athletic players who can provide similar but more consistent production on the offensive end with better quickness on the defensive end (don't need to be top 10 - just upper 1/2 of league). JR's rebounding in particular would be the hardest to replace of those 4 but getting some players who are good but not necessarily great rebounders (one of the biggest issues with Obi was how soft he plays on the boards for example).
To me it'll be interesting to see how the 1/2 of the season plays out and where the Knicks 2 first round draft picks are projected to land in thinking about what roster construction moves they will make (in particular IQ and Grimes contract extensions).
Thanks so much for the kind words Phil. Figured it was the newsletter that was needed at the moment. I don't know that we need to make quite the wholesale changes you suggest, but plopping one big elite defensive wing into the rotation would do wonders because it would move everyone else down a peg into their more appropriate roles.
the exact breakdown I was hoping for JM - this was fantastic. And you nailed it on the need for the elite defensive wing. Question is who we can get? OG is the ideal but will be tough to swing. Nets won't move Finney-Smith to us, so who is in the next tier?
Thanks so much Steve, I appreciate it after the time that went into it! And to answer your question, I sadly don't see the candidate. Teams guard these players like their own life.
So yes those games were defensive disasters. But before we go nuts about the scheme I would like to hear more about all the other teams shutting down Boston and Milwaukee because they have smarter schemes.
These are two immensely talented offensive squads.
The scheme is what it is. It works against worse shooting teams and torches against better ones. And that's fine. What would be interesting to see (not that it's feasible) if there are other teams with similar personnel to the Knicks (elite-ish rim protection, smaller on the wings/guards) that employ the same drop scheme at the same rate. If so, how successful are they as a defense? Or does switching more (based on the opponent) enable them to play better?
All this to say, the scheme is fine and I'm sure more fans want the scheme to fit the personnel of the opponent more. That we're employing the same scheme with less (at least to my untrained eye) immediate amendments to the defense to play both the Pistons and the Celtics isn't the best thing. But not the end of the world either.
One comment Jon - something I would like to see more of. IHart with the starters. I love Mitch but he’s so one dimensional he’s incredibly easy to exploit because of the Knicks team defensive schemes as evidenced by KP who I think the Knicks should have traded for. I’m sure the minute total with the starters is way too small of a sample size but count me as wanting to see that more.
I was on the KP bandwagon this summer. Not sure how realistic it ever was. In any case, I-Hart plus the starters has played 7 minutes so far this season, a total I imagine they'll triple tonight.
If I remember correctly, IHart with the starters was really bad defensively last season. I can't remember how many of those games were before 12/4. It could be even worse with DDV instead of Grimes. OTOH, RJ is playing better D
I had to watch the Celtics telecast since it was on NBA TV. They were pretty complimentary about everyone other than Randle who they called out for ball hogging, shooting when double teamed, etc
What you haven’t addressed is Thibs unwillingness to make adjustments. They came out flat in the 3q. He calls a timeout and runs out the same guys. It happens again. He does the same thing.
A guy is playing well but he comes out because it’s Thibs pre planned substitutions... a guy is playing poorly stays in until he’s scheduled to come out.
It feels like Thibs is really poor at in game tactics when things aren’t going to plan.
I'm obviously a Thibs guy but I think just because he doesn't have a quick hook on guys who have a rough few minutes doesn't mean he doesn't adjust in game. I'd argue that having the sort of hook you're talking about is exactly the sort of thing Grimes was talking about ("if i make a mistake, I feel like I'm coming out"). I'm also not sure where the obvious lineup adjustment was in the boston game.
Just like offense need to adjust to different coverages, the defense needs to be able to adjust as well...
Without questions Thibs is a great regular season coach. He prepares his team. They play hard, and every player knows what is expected of them. Can he make adjustments? Ultimately against the top teams you need to be able to make adjustments. It doesn't seem like we are really making the necessary adjustments....
Lets see Thibs playoff record. The premise will be does the playoff performance under perform or outperform the regular season standings.
2011: 1 seed got to ECF but lost to Lebron let Heat. Cant fault him
2012: 1 seed Rose got injured lost to 8 seed. Cant fault him
2013: Got to second round lost to dominant Heat with Lebron in 5 games. Cant fault him.
2014: 4 seed verse 5 seed. Lost in 5 games. red flag.
2015: 3 seed vs 6. bucks. First round win. Lost to Lebron/Kyrie led Cavs second round. Cant fault him
2018: 8 seed vs 1 seed (rockets) lost in 5. Cant fault him.
The Knicks history we know. I personally dont blame him for either exit.
Ok so I did this exercise not realizing the outcome until I was done. I am sure I lost most people at this point... lol.
But bottom line. The jury is still out on Thibs as a playoff coach. Can he make the necessary adjustments? Hopefully we get to find out...
I know his playoff record by heart and agree 2014 is the only minor red flag. I'd also argue it was quite the accomplishment for him to get to the 2nd round in 2013 and that last season featured more good than bad. All told, good to elite regular season coach with an up and down postseason track record. Those are usually guys worth keeping unless it's clear their voice has grown stale or there is a no-doubt-about-it upgrade.
I keep reminding myself we are 12-5 against teams not named Boston or Milwaukee and if we are anywhere near that pace for 82 games we're going to be fine.
On a humorous note, I read a Celtics fan's take on the game (I'm sure we've all been over-the-top too). His take was that IQ is always a threat for 50 in Boston, IHART intimates the Celtics, the Knicks are the dirtiest team in the history of sports ( been hearing that from Celtics fans since the Holzman era), and the refs hate the Celtics. Plus the Celtics are likely to crumble if an opponent glares at them. So I guess no matter how well your team is playing there's someone who thinks the sky is falling.
I love this comment Tim. Also, every fan base wants to fire their coach 85 % of the time.
But seriously, it's a reminder of how good we have it. We lost because they hit a bunch of 3's and we feel like the whole thing is flawed. They won because they hit a bunch of threes and feel like they got lucky to some extent. Perspective is everything.
It’s actually 12-4 against everyone but the Celtics or Bucks. It’s just that those teams have felt so unbeatable that’s tough. And we still have five more games to go against them.
Thanks for the correction!
Not meant to be a correction - just sort of surprised by it. It doesn’t *feel* like we’re 12-4 against everyone else. The vibes are not immaculate at the moment.
I doesn't feel that way at all. And don't forget Minnesota, who beat us on the last game of a 5 game road trip and currently has the best record in basketball.
After awhile, it gets very painful to watch the Knicks defensive strategy as in today’s world, almost every team has a couple of guys who can shoot threes consistently--especially when no one is defending them.
The “drop coverage” defensive might have been a very potent defensive 5+ years ago when the three-point shot wasn’t so pervasive and so pervasively accurate.
And as is easy to note, the better teams, the Boston’s and Milwaukee’s of the world make mincemeat of drop coverage. If the Knicks want to get to the second round this season or maybe even into the first round, they will need to change the defensive philosophy. We also know that Thibs is so stubborn that he probably won’t change the defensive scheme which leaves me wondering whether this is Thibs last season on the bench.
It is also clear that there is a large talent gap between the Knicks and the top 10 teams in the league. All in all, a pretty depressing stretch of games and after tonight, the schedule gets really rough until early January.
Bah humbug!
The Knicks drop coverage scheme works well against teams that don't have a bunch of knock down 3pt shooters. League average 3 pt shooting is 35% (and that's inclusive of everyone shooting well above that mark) - Thibs' scheme to clog the middle and force 3s is a viable defense against most teams. Unfortunately for the Knicks, the Bucks and Boston have 3 point shooters who will knock down open 3s and the Knicks don't yet have a counter. In those games, their only chance to win is to have a great offensive game and limit 2nd chance shots. The difference in the Knicks ability to win the last two games was 2nd half Offense - they were in both games in the first half and couldn't match the Bucks and Celtics offense in the 1/2 halves of those games. The Knicks don't have a top 10 player on the team but IMO it's a stretch to say that there is such a large talent gap between the Knicks and the NBAs top teams. The Knicks have one of the most top to bottom talented teams in the league. I'm no where near Obi or Cam hive but two players who couldn't start for us last year because of the talent in front of them are now starting for their new respective teams. How many teams are we hearing about would have IQ as their starting PG if he leaves? Almost every player in the Knicks 1 -9 current roster would be considered an excellent acquisition for any new team they go to and expected to play a prominent role (not be a JAG) on those squads.
For all of the talk about needing a top player / Superstar - how many "Superstars" currently playing have 1 or more Chips on their resume? Brooklyn had 3 Superstars and blew up, the Bucks got bounced last year with Giannis, Embid was the 2023 league MVP and got bounced in the Semis, Curry got bounced by LA last year. We talk about KD but outside of his run with Golden State - what other rings has he won? How'd Phoenix do with Booker last year? Superstars win games but TEAMS win Championships.
I think there are a lot more strong three point shooting teams than the Bucks and Celtics. Teams like Phoenix, Philly, Dallas, Miami, Denver are all teams that will shoot you out of the gym if you leave them wide open. And my point wasn’t that the Knicks stink. They can beat 2/3rds of the league teams on any night. The problem is I’d like to see them continue to progress as a team and right now, I see them in a dog fight for the 5th through 9th slots and getting to round two looks increasingly difficult.
And in terms of talent, you are correct in that they are very deep team in terms of B talent but outside of Brunson, they really don’t have much in the way of A talent. They have a high number of guys who play the 2/3 at an above average rate but they do not have a second star at any position let alone superstar.
I suppose my main point is, are fans happy with winning 42-48 games, maybe avoiding the play-in with a small shot at round two which with this team, we can do for years or do we want a team that will compete with a title? I know it’s a bit of a rhetorical question but that was my main point in the previous email.
At some point, Rose and his administrators will need to take some big swings not just improving on the margins.
They can guard the 3. It's specifically a stretch 5 that they *have* to fear that throws the whole thing into a tizzy.
Totally agree that there are a few teams beyond the Bucks and Celtics that shoot higher than league average from 3, but to your point the defensive scheme they employ can beat most teams any given night (which is why they rank top 10 defensively). I challenge the point (and this is strictly my opinion right or wrong) of needing to change the defensive philosophy of Thibs and/or replace him as a coach in order for this team to progress. Thibs will occasionally change his defensive approach from drop to switches (as he did in the last game) but he can only work with what he has. One of the things we rarely hear from the fan base (this is not just a Knicks fan thing) is what defensive adjustments they would put in place with this roster that would be better than the drop and/or switch coverages he currently employs. This ain't NBA2k where instead of pressing "X,Y, Up, Down" buttons we press "Y,Y, Down, Down" (I don't play the games so I have no idea what I'm talking about with the buttons but the point remains 😂) and all of a sudden closeouts work, we disrupt passing lanes and get steals.
Progression is not always a linear process and how you view progression is dependent on how you focus the lens. If your focus is these first 20 games, you might say they are not improving and maybe even regressing. If your focus is on the past couple of years you might say the Knicks went from a team that was not a playoff team a few years ago to a team that almost made the ECF. If they don't make it to or past the 2nd round this year, it doesn't necessarily make it a bad year if they have both the pieces they need to advance and a valid plan to make changes after looking at the playing data, a plan of improvement, the landscape of the draft and FA opportunities and trade opportunities that actually make the team better - not just a funner team to watch. Not to pick on Obi but he was a very fun player to watch but he absolutely did not make the team better.
It's two different things to say that there is a large talent gap vs saying we have a high number of guys who play at an above average rate but no A level talent. That was the point I was trying to make and it sounds like we agree there.
Rose and Team in the front office and Thibs on the Coaching bench have made a bunch of progress. Even the most die-hard Knicks haters no longer reference us as the LOL Knicks - now the argument is the team is just Mid. IMO they have shown enough that I have faith in them to continue to let them work. Franchise turnarounds that look like "One or Two Year" turnarounds are never just that. The base ingredients have to be in place before that jump to Chip contender status can be made and if you look at the improvements from the Phil Jackson / Fizdale Knicks to the Leon Rose /Thibs Knicks - I'd say there's been more than a little progress made and plenty of room for optimism.
I would be ok in the 45-48 win range for 2 years.
I agree Fargoness. But I said “years.”
you also said 42-48 wins :)
I get so up and down with every game (um, ok, every possession). So, I don't know how I'd handle it after 2 years. If we got ONE 50 win year in that time, maybe I could hold out for 4 years.
You got me Phil on a number of points. I suppose that I look at the progress since Dolan fired Checketts rather than the Jackson/Fizdale Knicks.
I’ve had season tickets since 1986 and my patience is just about shot.
While hoping the Knicks become a title contender anytime soon is probably a pipe dream I’d love to get back to the Checketts’ Knicks of the 90’s when the second round was a gimmie and the conference finals was really when the playoffs started.
I am happy though that they are no longer the “lol Knicks.” That period was way too long and way too ugly.
DEFCON 5 is when everything is normal in the world, and there is no reason why we would have to even think about using our nuclear arsenal. DEFCON 1 is when we're starting a nuclear war. It's a countdown — a fact I learned from seeing the movie WarGames many, many, many times as a kid.
Also, it feels like our schemes on both ends are built more than ever around the presence of Mitch. Curious to see how we fare without him, for however long he's out or hobbled.
War Games is one of those movies that came along a *tad* too early for me to catch the nostalgia wave after the fact (I was born in '83) and I don't think it ever caught on in pop culture to the level of Back to the Future or Revenge of the Nerds (the first 2 80's movies to pop into my brain on this fine Monday), so I missed out. All that being said, I knew DEFCON 1 was the worst and plum forgot. My default is always that 5 is the worst but I'm usually good about catching myself. Sigh.
WarGames is such a classic!
Excellent breakdown Sir! I didn't listen to the Celtics postgame but the game clips and your detailed analysis describes exactly what Dame talked about as the Buck's scouting report on the Knicks prior to their IST game. The sky is definitely not falling - it feels like a large portion of the fan base has the unrealistic expectation of Chip or bust every year with every game proving to be confirmation bias of their expectations (team sucks - fire the coach & blow it up or we got a squad of dawgs and we're this close to getting to the finals). This IMO was an excellent "this is where we are & what we need to improve" newsletter.
I think we have most of the pieces we need under Thibs (I operate under the assumption that Thibs will continue to be our coach over the next few years) to execute his defensive game plan but this team IMO needs a bit more length and athleticism with the ability for the starting 5 to play at a faster pace on both sides of the ball to push us forward. I think the Nova 3, Robinson, I Hart and maybe Deuce (even though he doesn't get the time at the moment) are the core that Rose will build around and some or all of RJ, JR, Grimes & IQ will need to be moved and replaced with more athletic players who can provide similar but more consistent production on the offensive end with better quickness on the defensive end (don't need to be top 10 - just upper 1/2 of league). JR's rebounding in particular would be the hardest to replace of those 4 but getting some players who are good but not necessarily great rebounders (one of the biggest issues with Obi was how soft he plays on the boards for example).
To me it'll be interesting to see how the 1/2 of the season plays out and where the Knicks 2 first round draft picks are projected to land in thinking about what roster construction moves they will make (in particular IQ and Grimes contract extensions).
Thanks so much for the kind words Phil. Figured it was the newsletter that was needed at the moment. I don't know that we need to make quite the wholesale changes you suggest, but plopping one big elite defensive wing into the rotation would do wonders because it would move everyone else down a peg into their more appropriate roles.
Appreciate you Sir as always. I could totally see that with a big elite defensive wing that can knock down 3s consistently and get rebounds.
the exact breakdown I was hoping for JM - this was fantastic. And you nailed it on the need for the elite defensive wing. Question is who we can get? OG is the ideal but will be tough to swing. Nets won't move Finney-Smith to us, so who is in the next tier?
Thanks so much Steve, I appreciate it after the time that went into it! And to answer your question, I sadly don't see the candidate. Teams guard these players like their own life.
So yes those games were defensive disasters. But before we go nuts about the scheme I would like to hear more about all the other teams shutting down Boston and Milwaukee because they have smarter schemes.
These are two immensely talented offensive squads.
The scheme is what it is. It works against worse shooting teams and torches against better ones. And that's fine. What would be interesting to see (not that it's feasible) if there are other teams with similar personnel to the Knicks (elite-ish rim protection, smaller on the wings/guards) that employ the same drop scheme at the same rate. If so, how successful are they as a defense? Or does switching more (based on the opponent) enable them to play better?
All this to say, the scheme is fine and I'm sure more fans want the scheme to fit the personnel of the opponent more. That we're employing the same scheme with less (at least to my untrained eye) immediate amendments to the defense to play both the Pistons and the Celtics isn't the best thing. But not the end of the world either.
I PRAY they will have adjustments in the bag for a potential playoff series. My guess is that they'd switch far more liberally.
I think the Hawks play mostly drop, and on balance, their backcourt probably has the same defensive aptitude as ours. Their defense is a disaster.
One comment Jon - something I would like to see more of. IHart with the starters. I love Mitch but he’s so one dimensional he’s incredibly easy to exploit because of the Knicks team defensive schemes as evidenced by KP who I think the Knicks should have traded for. I’m sure the minute total with the starters is way too small of a sample size but count me as wanting to see that more.
I was on the KP bandwagon this summer. Not sure how realistic it ever was. In any case, I-Hart plus the starters has played 7 minutes so far this season, a total I imagine they'll triple tonight.
If I remember correctly, IHart with the starters was really bad defensively last season. I can't remember how many of those games were before 12/4. It could be even worse with DDV instead of Grimes. OTOH, RJ is playing better D
post-12/3, 104.6 offensive, 117.5 defensive in 49 minutes
I had to watch the Celtics telecast since it was on NBA TV. They were pretty complimentary about everyone other than Randle who they called out for ball hogging, shooting when double teamed, etc
What you haven’t addressed is Thibs unwillingness to make adjustments. They came out flat in the 3q. He calls a timeout and runs out the same guys. It happens again. He does the same thing.
A guy is playing well but he comes out because it’s Thibs pre planned substitutions... a guy is playing poorly stays in until he’s scheduled to come out.
It feels like Thibs is really poor at in game tactics when things aren’t going to plan.
I'm obviously a Thibs guy but I think just because he doesn't have a quick hook on guys who have a rough few minutes doesn't mean he doesn't adjust in game. I'd argue that having the sort of hook you're talking about is exactly the sort of thing Grimes was talking about ("if i make a mistake, I feel like I'm coming out"). I'm also not sure where the obvious lineup adjustment was in the boston game.
I have no idea how the players feel about this--just haven't read anything on that. But this schedule this year REALLY, REALLY SUCKS!
Teams need to be able to adapt and have different coverages for different teams. Benji reposted this clip which I think is a must watch. https://twitter.com/rylan_stiles/status/1732840218179367213?s=48&t=0J0VWHoep8ZVQaIZcf2ENg
Just like offense need to adjust to different coverages, the defense needs to be able to adjust as well...
Without questions Thibs is a great regular season coach. He prepares his team. They play hard, and every player knows what is expected of them. Can he make adjustments? Ultimately against the top teams you need to be able to make adjustments. It doesn't seem like we are really making the necessary adjustments....
Lets see Thibs playoff record. The premise will be does the playoff performance under perform or outperform the regular season standings.
2011: 1 seed got to ECF but lost to Lebron let Heat. Cant fault him
2012: 1 seed Rose got injured lost to 8 seed. Cant fault him
2013: Got to second round lost to dominant Heat with Lebron in 5 games. Cant fault him.
2014: 4 seed verse 5 seed. Lost in 5 games. red flag.
2015: 3 seed vs 6. bucks. First round win. Lost to Lebron/Kyrie led Cavs second round. Cant fault him
2018: 8 seed vs 1 seed (rockets) lost in 5. Cant fault him.
The Knicks history we know. I personally dont blame him for either exit.
Ok so I did this exercise not realizing the outcome until I was done. I am sure I lost most people at this point... lol.
But bottom line. The jury is still out on Thibs as a playoff coach. Can he make the necessary adjustments? Hopefully we get to find out...
I know his playoff record by heart and agree 2014 is the only minor red flag. I'd also argue it was quite the accomplishment for him to get to the 2nd round in 2013 and that last season featured more good than bad. All told, good to elite regular season coach with an up and down postseason track record. Those are usually guys worth keeping unless it's clear their voice has grown stale or there is a no-doubt-about-it upgrade.