I really don’t miss Knicks games, but my wife made plans for us with another couple Saturday night. The husband is a very soft Knicks fan and knows I’m a lunatic about the team (I actually watched the Brunson 50 point OT game vs wizards earlier in the season at his house, and I behaved as a psychopath does…)
I was doing great, I subtly checked my phone a few times and saw that the Knicks had been building a huge lead. Our post dinner plans were to go to a local bar, and the Knicks were on. I walked into the bar halfway into the third quarter and the Knicks were up by 31. Jordan Poole immediately hit a step back three, and I knew it was ON. I’m trying to maintain conversation as the lead keeps trickling away, and by the time Marcus Smart cut it to four I had literally stopped speaking.
Thank god they won, as I may have lost us a solid couples friend.
“Tyler Kolek was a big part of that, but it certainly helped that almost every pass he threw to someone behind the arc resulted in a made basket.”
I would posit that part of the reason they made the baskets was because of the quality of his passing. On time, in the hands, in rhythm and open. He is the best passer on the team by far. He is also smart and a good shooter. Let me join the chorus - he needs to get minutes.
I think Thibs is the type of coach that believes his players can overcome any obstacle with preparation and effort. A downside of this is that when he's handed a veteran roster that's unbalanced, he'll keep trying to get the players to adjust to roles that aren't in their wheelhouse. And maybe that's just not going to work, but for whatever reason, he takes a loooooong time to make an adjustment. So maybe the team might work better with McBride starting instead of Mikal, but I don't think we're going to see that.
I think the playoffs are going to tell us so much. The Knicks have been good, but beatable this year. I could see them getting knocked on their heels in the first round into a dogfight and perhaps not being able to recover. But they do have proven playoff performers in their rotation. Mikal strikes me as a guy that suddenly becomes way more valuable in the playoffs. I could see them finding the formula and seriously knocking the Celts and/or the Cavs on their heels.
One thing that is bugging me is Precious. What's up with him? I think he's the type of player that looks REALLY bad before they get comfortable in a role. I hope he's not disgruntled and can find a way to improve his play, but I fear he may just not fit.
Some great points here Peter...your guess is as good as mine with Precious. Truly. Very, very strange. Re: Deuce/Mikal, my *guess* would be that the organization thinks they need to ride it out as is for several reasons, one of which is that they feel their ceiling is simply much higher if Bridges figures it out, whatever the hell that means. Lastly, re: the playoffs, nothing would surprise me. 6 game loss to Detroit? Sure. Going 7 games vs Boston? Why not.
That's right - the idea is that the ceiling is higher IF the guys in their current roles can figure it out. Thibs knows all about those on-off numbers. But just because it *hasn't* been great doesn't mean it *couldn't* be great. It's frustrating for fans because we give up on these guys before Thibs does, and we trust other guys before Thibs does, but I think Thibs being the way he is has a lot to do with the respect he gets and how he keeps the locker room together.
Don't overlook the 3 steals Kolek made on D. He has pesky hands but needs to get stronger in the off-season and take charges like Brunson. Otherwise, we have not as yet seen his potential on offense. He is a capable 3-point shooter who needs a little confidence in seeing his shot beyond the arc fall in. Getting some minutes against Dallas and LA Clippers may reveal more of Tyler's talent.
Dishing leads to swishing and it took a JB and Deuce injury to give Payne and Kolek a real chance to run the offense.
I have been a Thibs supporter for a long time, but not playing Kolek in the first half for something like 3 months is just unacceptable. We should have been getting Kolek and Hokporti regular reps from the start of the season for many reasons. In addition to developing our young talent, keeping JB and KAT under 36 minutes is better for their health and maybe their output too.
If Thibs cannot own up to this and fix it, he needs to go after the season ends.
I agree with your points MBW. As a self-appointed Captain of the "minutes police," I find it inexcusable that Coach Thibs needed to be reminded by Dad Brunson that being up by 20 points with only two minutes left against one of the league's weakest teams would be an ideal opportunity to give the starters a rest and empty the bench.
I believe the team's performance over the last few weeks indicates significant exhaustion, with Knicks players accounting for 50% of the league's top six minutes-per-game leaders. Besides that exhaustion, Thibs' limited use of the bench has left the staters less sharp and confident than they should be.
As for Thibs future, my guess is that almost nothing that happens will affect his coaching tenure. Some have speculated that if the Knicks don’t get out of the first round it would spell doom for the Coach. However, I think Thibs has built up enough goodwill to survive. But, if the Knicks don’t make the Eastern Conference Finals next year, Dolan will decide it’s time for a fresh perspective.
And for goodness sakes, get Kolek 15-20 minutes a game for the final 12 games. It will be good to sharpen the kids’ game and confidence and allow Jalen to ease back in to the games.
For these last 12 games, which as Jonathan notes won’t have a big impact on standings, I’d like to see Kolek get 20m. Payne can play 10m or so at the 2 guard. I’m not saying Kolek is better than Payne (although he might be in a year or two) I’d just like him to get some experience. If Brunson is healthy, then Kolek probably won’t play in the playoffs.
I would be afraid of Payne losing his rhythm. Kolek has said he is getting good experience in practices and development exercises ( and showed it against the Wiz). He will get more playing time in the next week. After that, I don’t see why we wouldn’t focus on the guys who are going to play against Detroit
Great article Jon & I loved the line "Precious Achiuwa looking like a guy playing for a contract in China" (But would China take him? lol). As one of a multitude, I've been calling for Kolek to see the court all season. He seems to see the court better than anyone else on the roster & can hit the open man better & quicker than anyone else. He is that classic "pass first' PG that JB, Deuce & Payne are not. But, we all know he'll see minutes until Deuce returns, because God forbid, the anti-Gumby Thibs would change his substitution pattern. When Deuce returns, Kolek goes back to Antarctica! It was nice for awhile to almost have a laugher, but then unfortunately, not so much. They recovered to regain most of their lead & get the 2 10 day kids in the game. Our 2 "veteran presence" guys continue to contribute from afar! Bring on the Mavericks, who may have made an even stupider move than Doncic, by trading Grimes to the Sixers!
Happy for Kolek. I’ve called for the rookies to play multiple times this season, not because I thought any of them were ROTY material, but because with the second apron stuff, cost controlled depth is such a valuable asset for us moving forward. I thought it was important to see what we have in these kids and if they can be #meaningful parts of a contending rotation. You can’t replicate game reps in practice. If Deuce misses more games, I hope Kolek makes the most of his opportunity and balls out against non-Wizards competition. If he can be the backup PG moving forward, that’s huge
Thibs tends to bring rookies along very slowly, and it's frustrating, because when they do play it looks like they can contribute. But I think for Thibs, even if these guys can contribute, he still doesn't want them on the floor until they're solid on defensive assignments. I can't really argue with his methods as some really good players have developed under him. A lot of times, it's injuries which give these guys their initial opportunities and Brunson and Payne have been pretty healthy.
When Brunson did get hurt, I can understand seeing if Deuce can handle backing up both guard spots because of his defense. On the other hand Kolek get more run is also a good idea. I'm not glad Deuce is hurt, but if Payne is going to be the backup PG in the playoffs, it's good for him to get some time running the team here. For Kolek as well, if Brunson or Payne were to get hurt in the playoffs, he can be a little more prepared.
I’d like to find tune the Kolek question as it was the subject of a side thread yesterday. I’d start by saying that I think Kolek is the best passer on the team. And I certainly think he should play in the absence of Jalen and deuce. When Deuce was healthy, we won with the second best defense in the league and lost with a disjointed offense. As an oversimplification, that sums up Deuce’s strengths, and weaknesses. He is not very good at running an offense.
I can see a case for handling the team either way when Deuce was healthy. The bigger question, and the one we were mostly debating, is what to do with the 12 minutes game available when Jalen returns. Personally, I think, splitting it between Cam and Kolek one would not allow either of them to get into a rhythm. I also don’t think that two minutes a game would do much for Kolek’s development.
So the question we were debating was whether Kolek should replace Cam. My view was that at the moment Cam is the more complete player as he is a pest on defense as well as contributor on offense. But there were plenty of opposing views, including some minutes police views that suggested that not giving the rookies playing time was the reason for our benches current deplorable state of affairs. Again, personally, I don’t think that the point guard minutes are where the bench has been overtaxed and I don’t think more game time for Dadiet would have fixed the issue with the wings. Huk had worked his way into the rotation, so I don’t think staying away from the rookies was a front office or coaching decision, put one based on merit.
Not sure why you can't play Kolek, Payne and Deuce off the bench. Shamet is giving you absolutely nothing on either end. If Kolek runs the offense, then Deuce and Payne can focus on shooting 3's. Can Kolek be any worse on defense than Shamet.
Shamet is not bad at defense. He is often overmatched because of size as he is playing out of position. He also isn’t hitting the shots he gets paid to make. There is no way they would use a deuce, cam Kolek lineup in the playoffs so why practice it. But hopefully Kolek will get a good run until Deuce and JB are back.
This is spot on. Brunson is averaging 35 mpg for the season while Payne is averaging 15. The decision to not play Kolek has not affected the team’s minutes issues at all, unless you’re under the mistaken belief that you can effectively play Kolek alongside either Brunson or Payne. The problem has always been a lack of wing depth.
Mikal was one of our two big offseason additions. We added his former teammates Payne and Shamet to presumably help him acclimate. The Payne led bench has been the lowest scoring bench in the league. Mikal recently piped up saying Shamet can do more so maybe Thibs is giving him an endless rope. But, Shamet is supposed to be a shooter. He has played in 38 games and has made 26 3's shooting 32%. He has completely lost confidence on offense and isn't spacing the floor. He hustles but he's 6'4" 190 lbs and looks woefully thing trying to do anything on defense.
It's been frustrating to draft a kid like Kolek who played well in summer league and the g league showcase and see what he did tonight and realize he didn't get a fair shot to play because Thibs default goes to the veterans. I think Shamet is completely washed - and has been for the last several seasons. Kolek is smaller than Shamet but is 5 lbs heavier. If Thibs wants to keep playing Payne, then try him together with Deuce and Kolek off the bench.
Also, when you realize just how bad Shamet has been it's frustrating we didn't get a chance to see Pacome. He is at least big.
I'm reluctant to weigh in too much on the Thibs topic, but I do think we're entering some fairly choppy waters if the Knicks don't advance to the ECF. Fair or not, it will be the conversation of the league if this team can't get there - and I have a hard time seeing him survive at all if the team can't win a first round series and take a second round matchup to at least 6 games.
The NBA season is way too long. Let's hope this team finds its groove (once JB returns) and puts together a legitimate run. If they don't, the subject of Thibs - even for a franchise that's trusted him like no other (and a star who's trusted him like no other) - is bound to boil up.
Is Kolek's defense that bad? Didn't he have 3 steals this game in limited minutes. I would really like to see more of him.
I was looking at the Cleveland boxscore and while acknowledging they have a deeper bench, I never see their starter's minutes going above the low 30's. That is definitely going to benefit them come playoff time. Atkinson is doing a great job and he has got Johnny Bryant beside him. Maybe if the Knicks blow out in the first round they bring back Bryant?
The Kolek/Cam question is the epitome of wasted breath - not cause it's not fun to talk about (it totally is and personally I haven't loved Kolek's lack of minutes either) is because next year none of this will matter. And while I, like everyone else, want them to win this year, we all know deep down this year is a proof of concept season.
The reason this won't matter next year is that I'm 99.9% sure neither Cam Payne or Landry Shamat are on this team and Kolek is more than likely the back-up PG. As far getting Kolek reps now, sure that'd be great, and god forbid Brunson stays hurt than Kolek might actually see reps in the playoffs. BUT, if Kolek is seeing reps in the playoffs we have much, much bigger issues.
Basically, next year the bench will be Kolek, Duece (or Hart if a lineup change), plus a back-up center and an upgrade from Shamat.
I really don’t miss Knicks games, but my wife made plans for us with another couple Saturday night. The husband is a very soft Knicks fan and knows I’m a lunatic about the team (I actually watched the Brunson 50 point OT game vs wizards earlier in the season at his house, and I behaved as a psychopath does…)
I was doing great, I subtly checked my phone a few times and saw that the Knicks had been building a huge lead. Our post dinner plans were to go to a local bar, and the Knicks were on. I walked into the bar halfway into the third quarter and the Knicks were up by 31. Jordan Poole immediately hit a step back three, and I knew it was ON. I’m trying to maintain conversation as the lead keeps trickling away, and by the time Marcus Smart cut it to four I had literally stopped speaking.
Thank god they won, as I may have lost us a solid couples friend.
Fantastic anecdote. Could imagine being in the exact same situation.
Me in the middle of a very sad and empty bar just repeatedly muttering to this dude’s wife “they’re blowing a 31 point lead, that doesn’t happen”.
Make up couples friend double date night tomorrow night with Mavs?
“Tyler Kolek was a big part of that, but it certainly helped that almost every pass he threw to someone behind the arc resulted in a made basket.”
I would posit that part of the reason they made the baskets was because of the quality of his passing. On time, in the hands, in rhythm and open. He is the best passer on the team by far. He is also smart and a good shooter. Let me join the chorus - he needs to get minutes.
It certainly helps. As to whether the chances of making those shots increased by 10 or 15 or 20 %, your guess is as good as mine.
I think Thibs is the type of coach that believes his players can overcome any obstacle with preparation and effort. A downside of this is that when he's handed a veteran roster that's unbalanced, he'll keep trying to get the players to adjust to roles that aren't in their wheelhouse. And maybe that's just not going to work, but for whatever reason, he takes a loooooong time to make an adjustment. So maybe the team might work better with McBride starting instead of Mikal, but I don't think we're going to see that.
I think the playoffs are going to tell us so much. The Knicks have been good, but beatable this year. I could see them getting knocked on their heels in the first round into a dogfight and perhaps not being able to recover. But they do have proven playoff performers in their rotation. Mikal strikes me as a guy that suddenly becomes way more valuable in the playoffs. I could see them finding the formula and seriously knocking the Celts and/or the Cavs on their heels.
One thing that is bugging me is Precious. What's up with him? I think he's the type of player that looks REALLY bad before they get comfortable in a role. I hope he's not disgruntled and can find a way to improve his play, but I fear he may just not fit.
Some great points here Peter...your guess is as good as mine with Precious. Truly. Very, very strange. Re: Deuce/Mikal, my *guess* would be that the organization thinks they need to ride it out as is for several reasons, one of which is that they feel their ceiling is simply much higher if Bridges figures it out, whatever the hell that means. Lastly, re: the playoffs, nothing would surprise me. 6 game loss to Detroit? Sure. Going 7 games vs Boston? Why not.
That's right - the idea is that the ceiling is higher IF the guys in their current roles can figure it out. Thibs knows all about those on-off numbers. But just because it *hasn't* been great doesn't mean it *couldn't* be great. It's frustrating for fans because we give up on these guys before Thibs does, and we trust other guys before Thibs does, but I think Thibs being the way he is has a lot to do with the respect he gets and how he keeps the locker room together.
Best guess is that Precious has been possessed by Sauron or Gollum instead of Bilbo, Frodo or even Isildur
This was great. As good a theory as any.
Don't overlook the 3 steals Kolek made on D. He has pesky hands but needs to get stronger in the off-season and take charges like Brunson. Otherwise, we have not as yet seen his potential on offense. He is a capable 3-point shooter who needs a little confidence in seeing his shot beyond the arc fall in. Getting some minutes against Dallas and LA Clippers may reveal more of Tyler's talent.
Dishing leads to swishing and it took a JB and Deuce injury to give Payne and Kolek a real chance to run the offense.
I have been a Thibs supporter for a long time, but not playing Kolek in the first half for something like 3 months is just unacceptable. We should have been getting Kolek and Hokporti regular reps from the start of the season for many reasons. In addition to developing our young talent, keeping JB and KAT under 36 minutes is better for their health and maybe their output too.
If Thibs cannot own up to this and fix it, he needs to go after the season ends.
Go NY, Go NY, Go!
🏀🏀🏀
I agree with your points MBW. As a self-appointed Captain of the "minutes police," I find it inexcusable that Coach Thibs needed to be reminded by Dad Brunson that being up by 20 points with only two minutes left against one of the league's weakest teams would be an ideal opportunity to give the starters a rest and empty the bench.
I believe the team's performance over the last few weeks indicates significant exhaustion, with Knicks players accounting for 50% of the league's top six minutes-per-game leaders. Besides that exhaustion, Thibs' limited use of the bench has left the staters less sharp and confident than they should be.
As for Thibs future, my guess is that almost nothing that happens will affect his coaching tenure. Some have speculated that if the Knicks don’t get out of the first round it would spell doom for the Coach. However, I think Thibs has built up enough goodwill to survive. But, if the Knicks don’t make the Eastern Conference Finals next year, Dolan will decide it’s time for a fresh perspective.
And for goodness sakes, get Kolek 15-20 minutes a game for the final 12 games. It will be good to sharpen the kids’ game and confidence and allow Jalen to ease back in to the games.
So you are benching Payne after JB comes back? Twenty minutes for Kolek. 28 for Brunson. Payne is gone?
For these last 12 games, which as Jonathan notes won’t have a big impact on standings, I’d like to see Kolek get 20m. Payne can play 10m or so at the 2 guard. I’m not saying Kolek is better than Payne (although he might be in a year or two) I’d just like him to get some experience. If Brunson is healthy, then Kolek probably won’t play in the playoffs.
I would be afraid of Payne losing his rhythm. Kolek has said he is getting good experience in practices and development exercises ( and showed it against the Wiz). He will get more playing time in the next week. After that, I don’t see why we wouldn’t focus on the guys who are going to play against Detroit
Not ready to fire Tibbs but not using Kolek totally unacceptable. Ernie D redux. Use him
Was that an Ernie Digregorio reference? If so, not sure how many got it but it is a good comparison.
Great article Jon & I loved the line "Precious Achiuwa looking like a guy playing for a contract in China" (But would China take him? lol). As one of a multitude, I've been calling for Kolek to see the court all season. He seems to see the court better than anyone else on the roster & can hit the open man better & quicker than anyone else. He is that classic "pass first' PG that JB, Deuce & Payne are not. But, we all know he'll see minutes until Deuce returns, because God forbid, the anti-Gumby Thibs would change his substitution pattern. When Deuce returns, Kolek goes back to Antarctica! It was nice for awhile to almost have a laugher, but then unfortunately, not so much. They recovered to regain most of their lead & get the 2 10 day kids in the game. Our 2 "veteran presence" guys continue to contribute from afar! Bring on the Mavericks, who may have made an even stupider move than Doncic, by trading Grimes to the Sixers!
Happy for Kolek. I’ve called for the rookies to play multiple times this season, not because I thought any of them were ROTY material, but because with the second apron stuff, cost controlled depth is such a valuable asset for us moving forward. I thought it was important to see what we have in these kids and if they can be #meaningful parts of a contending rotation. You can’t replicate game reps in practice. If Deuce misses more games, I hope Kolek makes the most of his opportunity and balls out against non-Wizards competition. If he can be the backup PG moving forward, that’s huge
Thibs tends to bring rookies along very slowly, and it's frustrating, because when they do play it looks like they can contribute. But I think for Thibs, even if these guys can contribute, he still doesn't want them on the floor until they're solid on defensive assignments. I can't really argue with his methods as some really good players have developed under him. A lot of times, it's injuries which give these guys their initial opportunities and Brunson and Payne have been pretty healthy.
When Brunson did get hurt, I can understand seeing if Deuce can handle backing up both guard spots because of his defense. On the other hand Kolek get more run is also a good idea. I'm not glad Deuce is hurt, but if Payne is going to be the backup PG in the playoffs, it's good for him to get some time running the team here. For Kolek as well, if Brunson or Payne were to get hurt in the playoffs, he can be a little more prepared.
I’d like to find tune the Kolek question as it was the subject of a side thread yesterday. I’d start by saying that I think Kolek is the best passer on the team. And I certainly think he should play in the absence of Jalen and deuce. When Deuce was healthy, we won with the second best defense in the league and lost with a disjointed offense. As an oversimplification, that sums up Deuce’s strengths, and weaknesses. He is not very good at running an offense.
I can see a case for handling the team either way when Deuce was healthy. The bigger question, and the one we were mostly debating, is what to do with the 12 minutes game available when Jalen returns. Personally, I think, splitting it between Cam and Kolek one would not allow either of them to get into a rhythm. I also don’t think that two minutes a game would do much for Kolek’s development.
So the question we were debating was whether Kolek should replace Cam. My view was that at the moment Cam is the more complete player as he is a pest on defense as well as contributor on offense. But there were plenty of opposing views, including some minutes police views that suggested that not giving the rookies playing time was the reason for our benches current deplorable state of affairs. Again, personally, I don’t think that the point guard minutes are where the bench has been overtaxed and I don’t think more game time for Dadiet would have fixed the issue with the wings. Huk had worked his way into the rotation, so I don’t think staying away from the rookies was a front office or coaching decision, put one based on merit.
Not sure why you can't play Kolek, Payne and Deuce off the bench. Shamet is giving you absolutely nothing on either end. If Kolek runs the offense, then Deuce and Payne can focus on shooting 3's. Can Kolek be any worse on defense than Shamet.
Shamet is not bad at defense. He is often overmatched because of size as he is playing out of position. He also isn’t hitting the shots he gets paid to make. There is no way they would use a deuce, cam Kolek lineup in the playoffs so why practice it. But hopefully Kolek will get a good run until Deuce and JB are back.
This is spot on. Brunson is averaging 35 mpg for the season while Payne is averaging 15. The decision to not play Kolek has not affected the team’s minutes issues at all, unless you’re under the mistaken belief that you can effectively play Kolek alongside either Brunson or Payne. The problem has always been a lack of wing depth.
Mikal was one of our two big offseason additions. We added his former teammates Payne and Shamet to presumably help him acclimate. The Payne led bench has been the lowest scoring bench in the league. Mikal recently piped up saying Shamet can do more so maybe Thibs is giving him an endless rope. But, Shamet is supposed to be a shooter. He has played in 38 games and has made 26 3's shooting 32%. He has completely lost confidence on offense and isn't spacing the floor. He hustles but he's 6'4" 190 lbs and looks woefully thing trying to do anything on defense.
It's been frustrating to draft a kid like Kolek who played well in summer league and the g league showcase and see what he did tonight and realize he didn't get a fair shot to play because Thibs default goes to the veterans. I think Shamet is completely washed - and has been for the last several seasons. Kolek is smaller than Shamet but is 5 lbs heavier. If Thibs wants to keep playing Payne, then try him together with Deuce and Kolek off the bench.
Also, when you realize just how bad Shamet has been it's frustrating we didn't get a chance to see Pacome. He is at least big.
I'm reluctant to weigh in too much on the Thibs topic, but I do think we're entering some fairly choppy waters if the Knicks don't advance to the ECF. Fair or not, it will be the conversation of the league if this team can't get there - and I have a hard time seeing him survive at all if the team can't win a first round series and take a second round matchup to at least 6 games.
The NBA season is way too long. Let's hope this team finds its groove (once JB returns) and puts together a legitimate run. If they don't, the subject of Thibs - even for a franchise that's trusted him like no other (and a star who's trusted him like no other) - is bound to boil up.
Is Kolek's defense that bad? Didn't he have 3 steals this game in limited minutes. I would really like to see more of him.
I was looking at the Cleveland boxscore and while acknowledging they have a deeper bench, I never see their starter's minutes going above the low 30's. That is definitely going to benefit them come playoff time. Atkinson is doing a great job and he has got Johnny Bryant beside him. Maybe if the Knicks blow out in the first round they bring back Bryant?
I
The Kolek/Cam question is the epitome of wasted breath - not cause it's not fun to talk about (it totally is and personally I haven't loved Kolek's lack of minutes either) is because next year none of this will matter. And while I, like everyone else, want them to win this year, we all know deep down this year is a proof of concept season.
The reason this won't matter next year is that I'm 99.9% sure neither Cam Payne or Landry Shamat are on this team and Kolek is more than likely the back-up PG. As far getting Kolek reps now, sure that'd be great, and god forbid Brunson stays hurt than Kolek might actually see reps in the playoffs. BUT, if Kolek is seeing reps in the playoffs we have much, much bigger issues.
Basically, next year the bench will be Kolek, Duece (or Hart if a lineup change), plus a back-up center and an upgrade from Shamat.