To use an old basketball saying- KAT is just good enough to lose with.
And he seems to be injured alot. I don't think he fits with the Knicks culture, but he's a great fit for Atlanta where he and Trae can lose games 150-140.
Great summary of the Wolves and Towns situation. I just cannot believe any sane individual would try to play Randle and Towns together. Towns is not really a center, as evidenced by the team that knows him best mortgaging their future for Rudy Gobert. And that trade was made by one of the architects of Denver, Tim Connelly, who built a championship roster with Jokic at center. Towns is not really a power forward either - his defense is so so bad - but the only way to cover for him would appear to be to play a rim protector and PNR defending big next to him. So I would assume if the move was to get Towns, Randle would be going out in a separate deal (if not in the Towns deal itself). I think if they did this, they’d look at Towns as the upgrade over Randle. Even then, it’s a no from me. Towns just seems to have a really poor bball IQ. And if fans question Randle’s effort... hooboy would they be in for a treat with Towns.
This one scares me, because it feels plausible and the connections are there. And we know Leon loves those connections, as he did with Jalen and Obi. KAT is a Jersey kid, just like Rose and Wes. When Rose and Wes got here, I assumed DMitchell and Towns would be the targets. I also had the thought last week that if the Nuggets win with Jokic at center, it might embolden Rose and co to make the KAT move.
The Bargnani trade is the perfect comp here - and it was the big reason I was skeptical of the Rose hire to begin with - all reports indicated that CAA pulled the strings on that deal behind the scenes and it led to the ouster of Glen Grunwald (a competent GM). I can see the temptation to juice the offense with Towns - in some ways he would be perfect for Brunson and Hart. But it just feels like there’d be too much to overcome, unless we were able to find a superhuman 4/5 who could cover for Towns on defense at the rim and in pick and rolls and on the perimeter. I’m not sure such a player exists. Trading for Towns would make me extremely extremely nervous. It would also, I would think, spell the beginning of the end for Thibs. Just say no to Towns, please. I could be completely wrong... but this move would feel extremely risky to me.
Really well said all around. The only pushback I'll give - and its not much - is that you actually raise an interesting point about effort, and by extension, commitment to a scheme. Jokic isn't a better defender than KAT, but he gives a shit, all the time, and he knows where to be and is usually there when he's supposed to be. If KAT merely did that, I think it would go a LONG long way to changing the perception about him.
The weird thing about KAT is that coming out of Kentucky, people thought he'd be a defensive force. He was defensively dominant in college (playing next to Willie Cauley Stein, it should be noted)... it feels like becoming a 3pt assassin kind of shifted his priorities the wrong way in Minnie? My only question about his effort would be to look at Jimmy Butler's reaction to being his teammate. Is that something you can fix? Maybe there would be a bump bringing him home. If I were running the Knicks, I'm not sure I'd want to stake my job on such a bet. But Leon Rose is allll about the connections. I'm worried they may think they bring it out of him. Hey, if it works, it's a brilliant move. If it doesn't we're probably debating how much Dolan should offer Bob Myers a year from now. If we do it, I'd feel much better about a KAT/Mitch frontcourt than a KAT/Randle frontcourt though.
Re: KAT/Mitch vs KAT/Julius, to me, pairing KAT/Mitch still allows defenses to play 5 on 4 when you have the ball. I just think we've entered a time when you can't have an offensive zero (from a skill perspective) on offense, even at the C position.
Big shift in culture if he comes in or Leon and WWW working magic? Not sure Towns is cut from the cloth Brunson and Thibs are. I think that matters. Can't just hope talent fits into a culture. He'd have to buy in and play d. Not sure it'll happen but maybe NYC brings out heart he hasn't shown just yet! Fan of his game but not sure we can back this group to just slot him in when Mitch has been so integral on the defensive end. Go Knicks
The thing about great defensive players is they not only play hood d every possession, but multiple times every possession. Just look at Randle. KAT way worse from what I’ve seen. Feet not too quick either.
Jon, I apologize if you’ve covered this already ( I don’t recall that you have, but perhaps I’m just not remembering), but what would it take to land Porzingus this off-season, assuming he opts out? And from a numbers / analytics perspective, how many wins does that project to? Assume we lose / stretch Evan and don’t re-up Rose. Purely replacing Mitch’s minutes with Zingers’, how would that transform us as a team?
Last w / on a related note: I thought KAT hated Thibs - was I imagining those stories / rumors?
I couldn’t say it any better than Jack and Sean. A trade for KAT would be a disaster. Although you guys see the Bargnani trade as a good comp (it is), I see the horrible Eddie Curry deal as the best comp. Eddie was younger than KAT and we couldn’t know exactly what he’d be but the entire rest of the league stayed away due to Eddie’s heart problem, lousy work ethic and early results on his career looking terrible. Curry was in terrible shape, was all O and no D and didn’t come anywhere near the eye of the Tiger.
So the Knicks gave up TWO unprotected firsts and signed Curry to a huge deal. We all know how it turned out.
While Towns is a better player, with a much better pedigree, but comp isn’t crazy but a deal for KAT would be.
No push back on the skepticism, but we're doing a *slight* disservice to KAT here by comparing a 2-time All-NBA player to a guy who hadn't even shown he could be a consistent starter at the time of the trade. For as many issues as KAT has - and he has many - he's in a different universe from Curry.
KAT is obviously a much better player than Curry was, but the Knicks have a lot more to lose in a big trade offer for KAT as opposed to a big trade for Curry. The Knicks were awful so Isiah decided to roll the dice (still a dumb decision) on a very young Curry. Today’s Knicks are probably just a shade below the true championship contenders so they have a lot to lose if they make a bad deal for KAT.
However, I think many of us agree the deals for Curry and Bargnani were awful and it is likely a deal for KAT would be awful too.
I just hope Leon doesn’t have assets burning a hole in his pocket and making him itchy to trade for a “star.” KAT has way too many flaws to be worth a big package.
Fellas, we have a core, there is value in that continuous soup. I would sure be eager to reach like hell for that star that makes sense. But not tear it up for a dubious star that doesn’t fit. But by all means make moves, upgrade. The Naz Reids of the world make a ton of sense. It could be Obi who goes out at some point soon, but it could also be Mitch. Could be Randle or I Hart too. If we can get Reid, he will be good and useful, especially as the roster continues to take shape. And if not, it’s a highly tradable salary with on-court value. A fair haul for OG makes sense, with Randle or Barrett as part of the exchange. Don’t forget defense. IQ plays it and can shoot. We want two way ballers. KAT...ya really wanna build a defense around Towns, Randle and Brunson for the haul he would cost and price point. Not me, no way. And more certainly not Thibs. Take your time. We are not in a rush. I know there’s a reason to make moves now with the CBA change, but not moves we don’t want to make.
I don't think they make the KAT move if it significantly hampers what they could do next, and it most likely would. He will still cost a lot regardless of public perception of him being "lower". He also requires a specific set-up around him to succeed, which means more roster management toying/tinkering. I think when the FO wants to make big moves, they want to minimize what would be required in the after steps. If you are trading for KAT, you would still have a lot of work to do.
Jon, I love the analysis and insight you give us each and every day. Don’t see much better, if at all, anywhere. It’s why we are here, why we subscribe, and why we read every day. Now I can be the only idiot reading this newsletter, but sometimes, today specifically, I cannot figure out if you are for or against a KAT acquisition ? I know we all have our own opinions, but I definitely would like to hear yours. For or against ?
First Jeremy almost convinces me that Lavine is a good target then CP3 as a backup in a trade for my fave knick THEN its RJ for KAT and his no defense bloated salary with the dreaded lead apron fast approaching. I kinda feel like I’m being trolled by KFS so that later in the off season there will be this beautiful moment where the real plan comes into view and we continue our journey towards a title.
J Mac, would some iterations of trades with the Knicks serve Portland well? I haven’t heard any noise with our “win now” type of players for Dame in Portland, namely J Randle OR poss. RJ.
Some sort of sign and trade with J Grant (upgrade?) for Randle or RJ? Would provide more upside for Portland with RJ and cheaper but Idk if he’s better than Grant at this point. RJ vs Grant is a good debate.
I would love to somehow get that third pick and get an actual creating wing but it seems like the top wings in this draft are going to take some time to develop. We were interested in trading for an anti win now timeline/ethos with the kid on the Pistons, Ivey.
Whitamore is RJ with more athleticism but has shown flashes of going to his move coherently (courtesy of Russilo pod) and Scoot (I feel star when I read about/see him) just excites me but he’s going to need the ball to reach his potential.
We have Mitch who Portland could use too because those Nurk minutes have been empty the last three years. If IQ is a piece in a trade then Simons or one of Portlands smaller guards needs to come back to NY.
I haven’t analyzed the landscape of win now players that Portland could Trade for and all the reporting (Boston) I’ve heard never mentions the Knicks.
Am I wrong to believe that the Knicks' Coach, having worked with Kat in Minny, might either fight for or against Karl's acquisition? If Rose and Dolan, plan on leaving Tom at the wheel, let Thibs have a huge voice in deciding who rides in the Knick's van?
If I'm Minnesota I actually would stay with KAT if only because he missed so much time in their first season of two towers. This is still basketball where being big usually is a great thing. Based on what Mac wrote it doesn't seem like financial freedom is on the horizon any which way for MN.
I think there's some possibility they wait a year, but at some point, they have to break up their top four, and god help them if McDaniels plays out this year and improves even more, because he'd get the max
To use an old basketball saying- KAT is just good enough to lose with.
And he seems to be injured alot. I don't think he fits with the Knicks culture, but he's a great fit for Atlanta where he and Trae can lose games 150-140.
It's a saying that's lasted for a reason!
Great summary of the Wolves and Towns situation. I just cannot believe any sane individual would try to play Randle and Towns together. Towns is not really a center, as evidenced by the team that knows him best mortgaging their future for Rudy Gobert. And that trade was made by one of the architects of Denver, Tim Connelly, who built a championship roster with Jokic at center. Towns is not really a power forward either - his defense is so so bad - but the only way to cover for him would appear to be to play a rim protector and PNR defending big next to him. So I would assume if the move was to get Towns, Randle would be going out in a separate deal (if not in the Towns deal itself). I think if they did this, they’d look at Towns as the upgrade over Randle. Even then, it’s a no from me. Towns just seems to have a really poor bball IQ. And if fans question Randle’s effort... hooboy would they be in for a treat with Towns.
This one scares me, because it feels plausible and the connections are there. And we know Leon loves those connections, as he did with Jalen and Obi. KAT is a Jersey kid, just like Rose and Wes. When Rose and Wes got here, I assumed DMitchell and Towns would be the targets. I also had the thought last week that if the Nuggets win with Jokic at center, it might embolden Rose and co to make the KAT move.
The Bargnani trade is the perfect comp here - and it was the big reason I was skeptical of the Rose hire to begin with - all reports indicated that CAA pulled the strings on that deal behind the scenes and it led to the ouster of Glen Grunwald (a competent GM). I can see the temptation to juice the offense with Towns - in some ways he would be perfect for Brunson and Hart. But it just feels like there’d be too much to overcome, unless we were able to find a superhuman 4/5 who could cover for Towns on defense at the rim and in pick and rolls and on the perimeter. I’m not sure such a player exists. Trading for Towns would make me extremely extremely nervous. It would also, I would think, spell the beginning of the end for Thibs. Just say no to Towns, please. I could be completely wrong... but this move would feel extremely risky to me.
Really well said all around. The only pushback I'll give - and its not much - is that you actually raise an interesting point about effort, and by extension, commitment to a scheme. Jokic isn't a better defender than KAT, but he gives a shit, all the time, and he knows where to be and is usually there when he's supposed to be. If KAT merely did that, I think it would go a LONG long way to changing the perception about him.
And if my mother had wheels, she'd be a wagon.
The weird thing about KAT is that coming out of Kentucky, people thought he'd be a defensive force. He was defensively dominant in college (playing next to Willie Cauley Stein, it should be noted)... it feels like becoming a 3pt assassin kind of shifted his priorities the wrong way in Minnie? My only question about his effort would be to look at Jimmy Butler's reaction to being his teammate. Is that something you can fix? Maybe there would be a bump bringing him home. If I were running the Knicks, I'm not sure I'd want to stake my job on such a bet. But Leon Rose is allll about the connections. I'm worried they may think they bring it out of him. Hey, if it works, it's a brilliant move. If it doesn't we're probably debating how much Dolan should offer Bob Myers a year from now. If we do it, I'd feel much better about a KAT/Mitch frontcourt than a KAT/Randle frontcourt though.
The Butler thing weighs heavily in my mind.
Re: KAT/Mitch vs KAT/Julius, to me, pairing KAT/Mitch still allows defenses to play 5 on 4 when you have the ball. I just think we've entered a time when you can't have an offensive zero (from a skill perspective) on offense, even at the C position.
Great comment Sean. I doubt ur wrong.
Big shift in culture if he comes in or Leon and WWW working magic? Not sure Towns is cut from the cloth Brunson and Thibs are. I think that matters. Can't just hope talent fits into a culture. He'd have to buy in and play d. Not sure it'll happen but maybe NYC brings out heart he hasn't shown just yet! Fan of his game but not sure we can back this group to just slot him in when Mitch has been so integral on the defensive end. Go Knicks
The thing about great defensive players is they not only play hood d every possession, but multiple times every possession. Just look at Randle. KAT way worse from what I’ve seen. Feet not too quick either.
Jon, I apologize if you’ve covered this already ( I don’t recall that you have, but perhaps I’m just not remembering), but what would it take to land Porzingus this off-season, assuming he opts out? And from a numbers / analytics perspective, how many wins does that project to? Assume we lose / stretch Evan and don’t re-up Rose. Purely replacing Mitch’s minutes with Zingers’, how would that transform us as a team?
Last w / on a related note: I thought KAT hated Thibs - was I imagining those stories / rumors?
Thank you !!!
Wrote a whole newsletter on KP last monday! Also, cold water today from Begley, who says NY doesn't seem likely to go that route.
And I think a bit much has been made of Thibs' distaste for Towns. A lot of that is conjecture.
I couldn’t say it any better than Jack and Sean. A trade for KAT would be a disaster. Although you guys see the Bargnani trade as a good comp (it is), I see the horrible Eddie Curry deal as the best comp. Eddie was younger than KAT and we couldn’t know exactly what he’d be but the entire rest of the league stayed away due to Eddie’s heart problem, lousy work ethic and early results on his career looking terrible. Curry was in terrible shape, was all O and no D and didn’t come anywhere near the eye of the Tiger.
So the Knicks gave up TWO unprotected firsts and signed Curry to a huge deal. We all know how it turned out.
While Towns is a better player, with a much better pedigree, but comp isn’t crazy but a deal for KAT would be.
No push back on the skepticism, but we're doing a *slight* disservice to KAT here by comparing a 2-time All-NBA player to a guy who hadn't even shown he could be a consistent starter at the time of the trade. For as many issues as KAT has - and he has many - he's in a different universe from Curry.
KAT is obviously a much better player than Curry was, but the Knicks have a lot more to lose in a big trade offer for KAT as opposed to a big trade for Curry. The Knicks were awful so Isiah decided to roll the dice (still a dumb decision) on a very young Curry. Today’s Knicks are probably just a shade below the true championship contenders so they have a lot to lose if they make a bad deal for KAT.
However, I think many of us agree the deals for Curry and Bargnani were awful and it is likely a deal for KAT would be awful too.
I just hope Leon doesn’t have assets burning a hole in his pocket and making him itchy to trade for a “star.” KAT has way too many flaws to be worth a big package.
Eddy Curry is an accurate and horrifying comp.
Ref KAT: please no. And, that was 3 newsletters worth of info in 1. Amazing job as always
Appreciate you as always sir!
Fellas, we have a core, there is value in that continuous soup. I would sure be eager to reach like hell for that star that makes sense. But not tear it up for a dubious star that doesn’t fit. But by all means make moves, upgrade. The Naz Reids of the world make a ton of sense. It could be Obi who goes out at some point soon, but it could also be Mitch. Could be Randle or I Hart too. If we can get Reid, he will be good and useful, especially as the roster continues to take shape. And if not, it’s a highly tradable salary with on-court value. A fair haul for OG makes sense, with Randle or Barrett as part of the exchange. Don’t forget defense. IQ plays it and can shoot. We want two way ballers. KAT...ya really wanna build a defense around Towns, Randle and Brunson for the haul he would cost and price point. Not me, no way. And more certainly not Thibs. Take your time. We are not in a rush. I know there’s a reason to make moves now with the CBA change, but not moves we don’t want to make.
I don't think they make the KAT move if it significantly hampers what they could do next, and it most likely would. He will still cost a lot regardless of public perception of him being "lower". He also requires a specific set-up around him to succeed, which means more roster management toying/tinkering. I think when the FO wants to make big moves, they want to minimize what would be required in the after steps. If you are trading for KAT, you would still have a lot of work to do.
Jon, I love the analysis and insight you give us each and every day. Don’t see much better, if at all, anywhere. It’s why we are here, why we subscribe, and why we read every day. Now I can be the only idiot reading this newsletter, but sometimes, today specifically, I cannot figure out if you are for or against a KAT acquisition ? I know we all have our own opinions, but I definitely would like to hear yours. For or against ?
You just reminded me I was planning on putting this in a substack chat...check there in like 5 minutes lol
Lol, ok
First Jeremy almost convinces me that Lavine is a good target then CP3 as a backup in a trade for my fave knick THEN its RJ for KAT and his no defense bloated salary with the dreaded lead apron fast approaching. I kinda feel like I’m being trolled by KFS so that later in the off season there will be this beautiful moment where the real plan comes into view and we continue our journey towards a title.
That's secretly the goal!!
J Mac, would some iterations of trades with the Knicks serve Portland well? I haven’t heard any noise with our “win now” type of players for Dame in Portland, namely J Randle OR poss. RJ.
Some sort of sign and trade with J Grant (upgrade?) for Randle or RJ? Would provide more upside for Portland with RJ and cheaper but Idk if he’s better than Grant at this point. RJ vs Grant is a good debate.
I would love to somehow get that third pick and get an actual creating wing but it seems like the top wings in this draft are going to take some time to develop. We were interested in trading for an anti win now timeline/ethos with the kid on the Pistons, Ivey.
Whitamore is RJ with more athleticism but has shown flashes of going to his move coherently (courtesy of Russilo pod) and Scoot (I feel star when I read about/see him) just excites me but he’s going to need the ball to reach his potential.
We have Mitch who Portland could use too because those Nurk minutes have been empty the last three years. If IQ is a piece in a trade then Simons or one of Portlands smaller guards needs to come back to NY.
I haven’t analyzed the landscape of win now players that Portland could Trade for and all the reporting (Boston) I’ve heard never mentions the Knicks.
Sadly we don't have what it takes to get 3. And I'm not sure what deal makes sense between 2 teams who are both looking to win now.
Richie said it.
Am I wrong to believe that the Knicks' Coach, having worked with Kat in Minny, might either fight for or against Karl's acquisition? If Rose and Dolan, plan on leaving Tom at the wheel, let Thibs have a huge voice in deciding who rides in the Knick's van?
According to what Popper told me last week, Thibs does indeed have a huge say in these sorts of deciiosns
i think you are dismissing the Randle to the Wolves story too quickly.. (no Pun)
Maybe. Call it a gut feeling.
If I'm Minnesota I actually would stay with KAT if only because he missed so much time in their first season of two towers. This is still basketball where being big usually is a great thing. Based on what Mac wrote it doesn't seem like financial freedom is on the horizon any which way for MN.
I think there's some possibility they wait a year, but at some point, they have to break up their top four, and god help them if McDaniels plays out this year and improves even more, because he'd get the max