Great write up, John. You captured the mixed feelings I’ve been going through all week quite well. My only quibble is that I would argue Mikal Bridges is going to be the one soaking up the majority of Donte’s minutes, not Deuce. Deuce will be relied on heavily off the bench, surely. But we basically got Mikal for a backup. My big concerns are the ones you outlined - an injury to OG and Towns’s defense at center. It’s why I can see Thibs starting Precious as the nominal four next to Towns. The Precious / OG defensive numbers as a unit were great last year. The other option would be starting Hart for his rebounding. Once the questions start spooling it is hard to stop them with this trade. We’ll just have to wait and see. But I also agree with you that it was necessary and an upgrade to their playoffs chances. I’m excited to see it play out.
I think I have read and listened to almost all that has been written and said about the deal and John Schmeelk’s view is not so far afield.
It seems the consensus is that the Knicks gave up too much for Towns and while he is a clear upgrade over Randle, he is not a big enough upgrade to lose Dante and the Detroit pick as well. Also, the critique continues that one of the Knicks strengths last season, the bench, is now a weakness.
Amongst reporters who took that view were Tim Bontemps, Bill Simmons, Stephen A Smith, Michael Pina, and John Hollinger, among others. Of course, there are those who are positive about the deal like Kendrick Perkins, Fred Katz, maybe even Howard Beck. Our fearless leader — JM seems to be torn.
I’m worried that not only does Towns take us away from our core culture aka defensive maniacs, bruising, tough, you know you were in a fight team to one that is soft in the middle, has little shot blocking and three key players who are highly fragile in Towns, OG and Robinson.
Finally, the roster is thin and I am not sure how much we can count on some of the new guys who have kicked around the NBA in Shamet, Payne, Warren (not sure if he makes the team) and Okeke (not sure he makes the team). And with Towns, OG and Robinson missing an average of 20 games a season for the past few seasons, depth is doubly important.
If I could go and undo the deal, I would. But I can’t so I will just hope the minority view turns out to be the correct one.
Great article by someone who has mastered the ability to be a fan, yet be objective enough to discuss the issues and why x or y is doable or an area of concern. I have very mixed feelings regarding Mitch. A healthy Mitch ( I know ) gives them tremendous depth and versatility up front. However, it’s a lot of money for his role when every penny counts. Also while everyone points to his lack of offense, it’s his free throw shooting that concerns me more. I fear a hack-a-Shaq scenario once the playoffs get to the nitty gritty. I suspect that once he proves to be playable he’ll be moved.
Something about your post reminded me that two weeks ago there was a "too few minutes" now it seems like we have just enough to go around no? I don't see where more wing depth actually plays without season altering injuries.
Difference between wing depth and depth at the 4/5. I was referring to KAT at the 4 with a more rim defending type/rebounder at the 5. Mix and match them. Particularly with which wings are in. Josh is a strong rebounder OG not so much.
Mitch is not a good FT shooter by any means. If a playoff 4th qtr comes to that than he can ride the pine but that means we're likely ahead and a team is desperate to come back.
Well that was comprehensive Schmeelk! Nice work. Agree that the Mikail & KAT trades were overpays but there comes a time in every deal (even outside of sports) where they’re asking for a little more and you have to ask yourself, “is this extra ask enough to stop me from making the deal I love? Will I regret holding firm and this kind of deal never comes around again?” This time element was clearly in play for the KAT trade and Leon made the right call for all the reasons you noted. It does suck to have emptied the coffers but this is for a star heavy outcome with guys in their 20s. This is not Garnett and Pierce at the end of their value. In Leon we trust plus these guys have done an amazing job turning 2nd rounders into value.
Great guest piece. Like you, I thought the first round pick was the hardest part to stomach and that is because of the holes at PF and, unless Mitch is healthy, rim protecting center. If Mitch is healthy and we can sometimes go with a Gobert type line up with Kat sliding to PF for stretches then I am real happy with this. I just don’t trust Mitch to stay healthy.
This may be a somewhat unpopular opinion but I’ll feel a lot better about the team if and when we can trade Mitch for some reliable depth. While some are excited about what he can provide upon his return, I don’t think that can be banked on and instead will constantly wonder whether his next game is his last before another extended absence.
I can see this perspective, but I think this team’s highest ceiling right now is with a healthy Mitch available for 20min, maybe more against certain matchups (Embiid). I don’t love the idea of trading Mitch for depth pieces personally. What Mitch is good at, he’s elite at. And he’s shown in certain playoffs matchups that he’s a difference maker.
I would sign up for that version of Mitch right now. Maybe I’m overly pessimistic, but I have serious reservations about his long-term viability with these stress fractures. Also, not sure if you saw the latest pod with Fred, but Fred emphasized that a December-January return is a goal, but hardly a certainty or prediction. (That said, the uncertainty hampers his trade value).
Good note. I like this guy. Let’s bring him back every twice in a while!
Lots of familiar things are being said. Where I shake out is as follows
1.) I don’t know if the team is better or worse now than it was before the trade, but I know I’m less excited now about watching it than I was a week or two ago. Losing Divo really hurts and PKAT is just straight hard for me to watch.
2.) I think I will feel even worse if we trade Mitch. You’re not going to get much for him, and if you do bring in some depth at the 2/3 then spot minutes will be hard for Kolek and Dadiet to come by. More importantly Mitch can do all the things PKAT can’t and while he is an incomplete player who I agree shouldn’t be closing out close games, I love watching him swat shots and clean the glass. I suspect Thibs will want to keep him around and play TT (twin towers) lineups sometimes like the wolves were doing with PKAT and Gobert, and the 90’s Spurs used to do with TD and the Admiral. I don’t know how many TT minutes you’d see but doing some of that would allow OG and Hart to be mostly 3s instead of 4s, effectively adding to the wing depth that I keep hearing people say we lack. Same argument for Precious and I agree he is going to play a lot.
Man, after that guest piece, was hoping Schmeelk had a Giants substack to subscribe to, but alas... still looking for one to add to my beloved KFS and Mets Fix.
I did think a healthy pre trade Knicks roster could win the title, I still think the Knicks can win the title. Both versions will need Mitch healthy in playoffs.
Very thoughtful and informative overview of trade. Though the starting 5: Towns, Brunson, Bridges, OG, and Hart are formidable, the back-up of Deuce and Precious, along with Mitch, once healthy, are valuable supplements. Payne, Shamet and perhaps an improved Sims can also contribute on a second unit. One of the rookie draft picks: Kolek, McCullogh or Hukporti (Dadiet needs time) could also surprise as the season progresses. Leon will likely look to trade Mitch before the deadline for another wing who can shoot 3's, along with a serviceable back-up center. Leon may have overpayed in draft picks for both Bridges and OG, but saw our window of opportunity as now. Draft picks do not suit up or make the box score. I like our chance for a chip--perhaps our best chance in decades. Let the games begin.
I am excited that we are trying to win a championship this year. I think PG, stretch 5, and big wings are the hardest positions to find. This FO has a knack / track record for finding / developing Donte type players -- IQ, Donte, Grimes, and McBride for relatively small cost. I'm a little skeptical about Payne / Shamet being part of the long-term picture because I think they are cooked. Maybe Kolek / Pacome turn into bench rotation players, maybe they don't. Maybe it takes until next year, but I think the FO can find quality bench depth.
Great article. Most importantly, the section on mixing lineups v. Current mix is correct.My worries at center pegged us at maybe Eastern final. Ig maybe. Before Wemby sprouts permanent wings, now is the time.
Great write up, John. You captured the mixed feelings I’ve been going through all week quite well. My only quibble is that I would argue Mikal Bridges is going to be the one soaking up the majority of Donte’s minutes, not Deuce. Deuce will be relied on heavily off the bench, surely. But we basically got Mikal for a backup. My big concerns are the ones you outlined - an injury to OG and Towns’s defense at center. It’s why I can see Thibs starting Precious as the nominal four next to Towns. The Precious / OG defensive numbers as a unit were great last year. The other option would be starting Hart for his rebounding. Once the questions start spooling it is hard to stop them with this trade. We’ll just have to wait and see. But I also agree with you that it was necessary and an upgrade to their playoffs chances. I’m excited to see it play out.
I think I have read and listened to almost all that has been written and said about the deal and John Schmeelk’s view is not so far afield.
It seems the consensus is that the Knicks gave up too much for Towns and while he is a clear upgrade over Randle, he is not a big enough upgrade to lose Dante and the Detroit pick as well. Also, the critique continues that one of the Knicks strengths last season, the bench, is now a weakness.
Amongst reporters who took that view were Tim Bontemps, Bill Simmons, Stephen A Smith, Michael Pina, and John Hollinger, among others. Of course, there are those who are positive about the deal like Kendrick Perkins, Fred Katz, maybe even Howard Beck. Our fearless leader — JM seems to be torn.
I’m worried that not only does Towns take us away from our core culture aka defensive maniacs, bruising, tough, you know you were in a fight team to one that is soft in the middle, has little shot blocking and three key players who are highly fragile in Towns, OG and Robinson.
Finally, the roster is thin and I am not sure how much we can count on some of the new guys who have kicked around the NBA in Shamet, Payne, Warren (not sure if he makes the team) and Okeke (not sure he makes the team). And with Towns, OG and Robinson missing an average of 20 games a season for the past few seasons, depth is doubly important.
If I could go and undo the deal, I would. But I can’t so I will just hope the minority view turns out to be the correct one.
Great article by someone who has mastered the ability to be a fan, yet be objective enough to discuss the issues and why x or y is doable or an area of concern. I have very mixed feelings regarding Mitch. A healthy Mitch ( I know ) gives them tremendous depth and versatility up front. However, it’s a lot of money for his role when every penny counts. Also while everyone points to his lack of offense, it’s his free throw shooting that concerns me more. I fear a hack-a-Shaq scenario once the playoffs get to the nitty gritty. I suspect that once he proves to be playable he’ll be moved.
Something about your post reminded me that two weeks ago there was a "too few minutes" now it seems like we have just enough to go around no? I don't see where more wing depth actually plays without season altering injuries.
Difference between wing depth and depth at the 4/5. I was referring to KAT at the 4 with a more rim defending type/rebounder at the 5. Mix and match them. Particularly with which wings are in. Josh is a strong rebounder OG not so much.
We don’t need another 2/3 wing who is a shooter.
I think I agree with your thought process and come to the opposite conclusion that we need Mitch healthy come playoffs.
Foul shooting?
Mitch is not a good FT shooter by any means. If a playoff 4th qtr comes to that than he can ride the pine but that means we're likely ahead and a team is desperate to come back.
Well that was comprehensive Schmeelk! Nice work. Agree that the Mikail & KAT trades were overpays but there comes a time in every deal (even outside of sports) where they’re asking for a little more and you have to ask yourself, “is this extra ask enough to stop me from making the deal I love? Will I regret holding firm and this kind of deal never comes around again?” This time element was clearly in play for the KAT trade and Leon made the right call for all the reasons you noted. It does suck to have emptied the coffers but this is for a star heavy outcome with guys in their 20s. This is not Garnett and Pierce at the end of their value. In Leon we trust plus these guys have done an amazing job turning 2nd rounders into value.
Great guest piece. Like you, I thought the first round pick was the hardest part to stomach and that is because of the holes at PF and, unless Mitch is healthy, rim protecting center. If Mitch is healthy and we can sometimes go with a Gobert type line up with Kat sliding to PF for stretches then I am real happy with this. I just don’t trust Mitch to stay healthy.
This may be a somewhat unpopular opinion but I’ll feel a lot better about the team if and when we can trade Mitch for some reliable depth. While some are excited about what he can provide upon his return, I don’t think that can be banked on and instead will constantly wonder whether his next game is his last before another extended absence.
I can see this perspective, but I think this team’s highest ceiling right now is with a healthy Mitch available for 20min, maybe more against certain matchups (Embiid). I don’t love the idea of trading Mitch for depth pieces personally. What Mitch is good at, he’s elite at. And he’s shown in certain playoffs matchups that he’s a difference maker.
I would sign up for that version of Mitch right now. Maybe I’m overly pessimistic, but I have serious reservations about his long-term viability with these stress fractures. Also, not sure if you saw the latest pod with Fred, but Fred emphasized that a December-January return is a goal, but hardly a certainty or prediction. (That said, the uncertainty hampers his trade value).
Good note. I like this guy. Let’s bring him back every twice in a while!
Lots of familiar things are being said. Where I shake out is as follows
1.) I don’t know if the team is better or worse now than it was before the trade, but I know I’m less excited now about watching it than I was a week or two ago. Losing Divo really hurts and PKAT is just straight hard for me to watch.
2.) I think I will feel even worse if we trade Mitch. You’re not going to get much for him, and if you do bring in some depth at the 2/3 then spot minutes will be hard for Kolek and Dadiet to come by. More importantly Mitch can do all the things PKAT can’t and while he is an incomplete player who I agree shouldn’t be closing out close games, I love watching him swat shots and clean the glass. I suspect Thibs will want to keep him around and play TT (twin towers) lineups sometimes like the wolves were doing with PKAT and Gobert, and the 90’s Spurs used to do with TD and the Admiral. I don’t know how many TT minutes you’d see but doing some of that would allow OG and Hart to be mostly 3s instead of 4s, effectively adding to the wing depth that I keep hearing people say we lack. Same argument for Precious and I agree he is going to play a lot.
4/5 minutes: PKAT: 30, Mitch: 25: Precious: 25, OG 8, Hart 8.
2/3 minutes: Bridges: 33, Hart: 25, OG: 25, Deuce: 13
PG minutes: JB 36, Deuce: 12
Man, after that guest piece, was hoping Schmeelk had a Giants substack to subscribe to, but alas... still looking for one to add to my beloved KFS and Mets Fix.
Me too. I’m surprised there is no great New York Football Giants Substack.
I did think a healthy pre trade Knicks roster could win the title, I still think the Knicks can win the title. Both versions will need Mitch healthy in playoffs.
Very thoughtful and informative overview of trade. Though the starting 5: Towns, Brunson, Bridges, OG, and Hart are formidable, the back-up of Deuce and Precious, along with Mitch, once healthy, are valuable supplements. Payne, Shamet and perhaps an improved Sims can also contribute on a second unit. One of the rookie draft picks: Kolek, McCullogh or Hukporti (Dadiet needs time) could also surprise as the season progresses. Leon will likely look to trade Mitch before the deadline for another wing who can shoot 3's, along with a serviceable back-up center. Leon may have overpayed in draft picks for both Bridges and OG, but saw our window of opportunity as now. Draft picks do not suit up or make the box score. I like our chance for a chip--perhaps our best chance in decades. Let the games begin.
I have a question if anyone is still looking here or the next mail bag:
Would the Detroit pick, two second rounders and Deuce been enough for Walker Kessler?
Great article John. Please come back again.
I am excited that we are trying to win a championship this year. I think PG, stretch 5, and big wings are the hardest positions to find. This FO has a knack / track record for finding / developing Donte type players -- IQ, Donte, Grimes, and McBride for relatively small cost. I'm a little skeptical about Payne / Shamet being part of the long-term picture because I think they are cooked. Maybe Kolek / Pacome turn into bench rotation players, maybe they don't. Maybe it takes until next year, but I think the FO can find quality bench depth.
Great guest piece, John. (And v cool Jon!)
I agree our 7 is better than the prior 9, as you put it perfectly.
If you count Precious (back up 4), I think we have a good 8 when Mitch returns.
But it’s still not enough.
We need another quality wing, especially as protection vs injury in regular season.
Who is it? I doubt it’s Shamet.
Do we even have the resources or flexibility anymore to find someone?
Great article. Most importantly, the section on mixing lineups v. Current mix is correct.My worries at center pegged us at maybe Eastern final. Ig maybe. Before Wemby sprouts permanent wings, now is the time.