IMO this was definitely thibs coaching 100% his decisions. No managing FO needs, analytic profiles, or egos. He went all in on defense, and for a night it worked. We are in such a better place than 3 years ago. NO to tanking. Getting the 1st pick is an impossible needle to thread. NO to waiting on a trade for a would be star - that rarely works out either. Stars are randomly found all over the draft board. Keep trying to win until we walk into a game changer.
Judging by Twitter and all the Hives, you can see many unhappy Knick’s fans combine a win into a tragedy. I just commented on this yesterday’s news letter. I prefer defense over offense any day. This game was a perfect example. I’ve never been happier with a win. Bench all the players who don’t pickup 90 feet on each play. Make RJ come off the bench, he’s still too young to give up on, and make him lose weight. I’m a league bowler. , no comparison to Basketball, except sometimes I roll a perfect Strike Ball, sometimes I roll a ball that isn’t that good but get a strike, they both look good on the scoreboard. Same in basketball , give me a win where every Knick plays perfectly or an ugly win like last night. They both look the same where it counts. I think with the talent we have we better count on winning ugly. Oh and I would take dogs like Brunson, Quickely,, Grimes and Robinson over all the other Prima Donna’s on the team. I can’t think of an uglier coach than Tom Thibodeau either.
NY's still chasing stars instead of building a team. Jackson, for all his many faults, wanted to construct a team that shared the ball and played defense. After Dolan sent Phil off to Montana with MSG millions, Mills and Perry initially claimed that they wanted to restore NY to the Riley/JVG hard nosed, tough, ready to rumble mode of play. And, Fizdale, from the Heat and the Griz, supposedly could coach that style of play.
Now, we are back to chasing stars! Who? Towns, Booker, Lavine, SGA, the next disgruntled CAA client? And, what, on a team, depleted of talent and future draft picks after the trade, is that going to accomplish??? One, there's no Michael or Lebron to trade for--- a singular talent that lifts his team and induces other star players to come play with him. Two, if such a talent were to emerge in the NBA, it's highly unlikely he would ever be traded. And, yes, there's a chance. Sure, it is possible. But, look at the haul the Jazz got for Rudy; trading for a star will cripple the Knicks.
Sure, they are impaired now, but there STILL is THE POSSIBILITY of building a team-----if the front office would just DO IT! I have always rejected tanking. I like honest competition. I think losing corrupts a team's culture. It is unfair to fans who have paid, in person and on cable/streaming, to see a good product. But, this team... something's off. Seems, RJ is either over compensating for his contract, troubled, or sulking because he was discussed in the trade talks. The Spida pursuit seems to have irreparably damaged their chemistry. This team needs a tear down [if JB can't save them].
The star gambit is a worthless strategy. The present is unsustainable. They have to go to the bottom to get to the top! The Spurs survived tanking for Duncan. As did the Rockets tanking for Sampson. It's time. Hinkie for GM.
On the bright side, we won a game where we played 7 players 24 or younger + Randle (28) and Brunson (26). Is it fair to say we are basically playing the kids?
This was a crazy game and I agree with all the hand-wringing over what it means for this season and the future. One thing nobody is discussing was perhaps JB officially became the real leader of the team after the Dallas debacle. Calling out the players and their lack of "wanting it" more than their opponent in the second half of the game (or last 5 minutes) is so true for so many of the games this year (and last) and what happened tonight? -- an all out effort for 4 quarters! Yes, they are flawed and yes they are struggling to shoot this year, but they actually played their tails off and Mitch showed that so well at the end of the game to seal the win along with JB. Finally we had a whole team playing hard -- not just IQ, Grimes, Obi and JB -- and played with the grit of 2020-21. Against good teams, we have to win ugly as we can't 1) consistently shoot well enough and 2) can't outrun them while maintaining high energy defense and avoiding transition/turnover issues. We're a few lost opportunities in close games from being a 14-10 team! I agree that this squad is not a real contender (now or in the future) but they can be entertaining and reasonably make the postseason if they fall in line with JB and "want it." If JB has become their leader, sorry Tank Squad and sorry "Fire Thibs" folks -- they may get to 40-44 wins in spite of Thibs and the FO follies. JB has a coach he likes and his dad to protect -- and being the genuinely good guy he is, he'll fight to the death to make this squad not drop the rope.
Well done again Jon. I agree that Quick has been our second best player. We should not trade him. Why would we? Also, It looks tom me like Thibs has lost some on the team, not all. I think he lost Obi during the loss at home v OKC which i totally blame thibs for (maybe with help from Leon). And maybe Cam, but like Julius, Cam seems unreliable, inconsistent, and moody, he can go or stay for all I care. Lastly, I still think the key to unlocking this team is moving, or at least cutting back on minutes for, Randle. The team seems to see him as a leader and when our leader is an inconsistent, moody, low motor, turnover machine, of course his teammates are going to feed of that negative mo jo. And cutting back minutes to players who are not displaying a team first approach (yes you too RJ) is the best thing to do to help the team improve.
I’m totally confused and conflicted about this team fight now. The idea that the FO wants to trade for the next star that becomes available is BS to me. The idea that they want to keep the likes of IQ,Obi, Grimes and Deuce seem far fetched when you look at how they are deployed during games. I want to see those young guys play. Isn’t that why we didn’t trade them? Randle isn’t going anywhere if the team is still trying to make the play- in, so why are we holding Obis career hostage? We never should have drafted him at 8 when there were players in positions of need still on the board (Halliburton). Another reader said yhis and I’ll echo the statement, as soon as Leon Rose was hired Jalen Brunson was going to be a Knick. So firing Thibs now would damage that relationship because Rick Brunson might also get the boot. Sitting vets is not only a waste of good cap space but it weakens their trade value.
Lastly why the hell did we hire Jonnie Bryant and Walt Perrin if it wasn’t to bring Donovan Mitchell home to New York. Make it make sense. Danny Ainge looks like a freaking genius for passing on the Knicks offer at this point.
If Quickley, career 2nd unit most likely, has been the 2nd best player on our team and the best player is a debatable all star (I think he is), and our team is only 2 games under .500 then why is the coach getting flamed? It's actually a pretty impressive record all things considered. Btw I do think it's time to move on from Thibs but this is just as much, maybe more, a talent issue than bad coaching.
Really odd to hear the amount of people complaining about rotation minutes, for fringe rotation guys, in a game where we saw three of our young guards (of whom the usual malcontents protested weren't getting the minutes they deserve just last week) shut down the most dynamic backcourt in the game right now.
This week Cam doesn't get his fair share of run, next week it will be Quickly again. They blame Thibs, and pick and choose what boilerplate coach-speak they'll use against him when he is acting as SOLE communicator for the organization.
I would love nothing more than Randle and RJ buoyed from this team for peanuts. But the idea that you can just sit them is not based in reality.
Honest question; have these bellyachers managed anyone professionally? Your leaders are your leaders, demotions don't work. It poisons the office. Are we longing for days of “A leopard can't change its spots”?
Dec 5, 2022·edited Dec 5, 2022Liked by Jonathan Macri
I fall into the camp happy with this win. The question everyone had when the Knicks hired Thibs after his fall-out with KAT & Minnesota was can an old dog learn some new tricks. Can he reinvent himself to be a version of himself that's doesn't burn guys' ears off by the end of his tenure (see EVERY other tenure) and instead be a modified version, maybe even a guide for younger players? His first year seemed like evidence that he could in fact adapt....and then he revealed the stubborn goat that he is. I love the guy and I think/hope the FO went to him after the Dallas game and said, dude we've been asking you to change your scheme and defend the 3pt line better, you've said no...your ass is on the line and you can't just keep defending the paint like it's 1990. I saw the team make that adjustment. I saw him +Deuce and -DRose. It's not going to change overnight and yes, there were a ton of open 3s that the Cavs missed...but it looked better. It looked perhaps like this team was energized with a ray of light and shift in philosophy (however minor) and a desire to ask for more by winning. Firing Thibs is not going to turn this around. It may make it worse. Also why does everyone think Kenny Payne is going to automatically do everything Knicks fans want (i.e. play the kids, confront Ju on his D and RJ on his lack of passing when he's in a slump)? These will be significant and hard to deliver changes that may not even be in Kenny Payne's plan. Stick with Thibs and force some hard shifts from him...and everyone comes out better in the end.
Lol....I can't believe he could be that narrow minded. I'm sure he's aware of all the good, young players we have not drafted whether they are a lottery pick or not....and how can he not be aware of how good this draft is and how mediocre this team is at best with no real plan to add a piece to make them relevant. Whether the Knicks suck or not they will always have a packed house. It's not like it will effect his bottom line.,...plus it would be more fun to watch the young guys compete, but ultimately fail to make the playoffs!
Dec 5, 2022·edited Dec 5, 2022Liked by Jonathan Macri
trade machine Monday..
to expand on your idea last nite.. how about a Lakers blockbuster?
Westbrook, Pat Bev and Nunn to the KNICKS for Rose, Fournier, Randle and Cam
Lakers can move AD to the 5 and play AD, JR Lebron combo.. fournier and Rose become good bench pieces for Lebron and Cam is an asset they've been rumored to be interested..
for the Knicks i would send Westbrook home with a check.. Ive always loved PatBev's defense and attitude and Nunn is not really necessary just to make it 3:4
Knicks of course free up rotation spots for Deuce and OBI and are probably a better team long term.
Mitch, OBI, RJ, Grimes, JB start with Sims, IH, Quick, McBride, PBev off the bench
no picks going to the Knicks.. seems a reasonable reshuffle what am i missing? team seems a bit vertically challenged.. but we would see MORE SIMS
The one thing that it seems that everyone here is missing in their analysis of the Knicks thus far this season, is the strength of their schedule. If you really sit down and look at it, they’ve had a difficult run up until now, but after Atlanta, things generally seem to get much more favorable all the way up until the All-Star Game, then it is another grind down the stretch. The way things have historically played out, a record of .500 or better should at least get you into the top half of the play in (#7, #8). Maybe the East is a little better than in past years, the argument can certainly be made that the balance of power has shifted from West to East, but regardless it is hard to fathom any team finishing with a winning record and ending up with an #11 seed and going home.
So, we are in good shape. I think we will make a trade at the deadline. It may or may not be a blockbuster to bring in a centerpiece, I hope they do, but whatever happens I expect Leon Rose to continue the prudent policy of refusing to overpay in trades. Basically, the only player untouchable is Brunson, if only because it would set an awful precedent with future free agents to turn around and trade a guy you just signed to a major deal, you are basically telling the league that your word means nothing. I’m pretty sure everyone agrees that the objective is to get value for Randle to make room for Obi Toppin, but in the right deal with the right return, I’d hold on to Randle and move Obi, who wouldn’t? Grimes looks good, but I’d trade both him and Obi and a handful of #1s for SGA.
I think they’re clearly trying to showcase Deuce and Sims, although I could see Rose being a throw in on a trade for salary purposes with the understanding that he would get bought out to go chase a ring, and then going forward McBride becomes a 12 minute a night guy backing up Brunson. As for Sims, I see some real value in him in the league, the problem for him is that like Isiah Stewart in Detroit, he is a college Center, but he is too small at 6’8 to be an NBA center. I see both of those guys as 4s in the NBA, but you have to match them up with the right kind of personnel. If you were to pair up Sims with a Center who is more of a stretch 5, then you have something, but while he has talent and belongs in the league, we have a logjam at the 4, and he doesn’t really mesh well with either of our Centers.
Ideally, the move to make is to trade both Randle and Mitch Robinson, to upgrade the Center position. Originally, I said the target should be Ayton, but I don’t think Phoenix will make a move if they’re the #1 seed. So, the question becomes, do you want Karl Anthony Towns here?
There is so much to unpack in that one loaded question, I’m not even going to try to answer it, but it would certainly qualify as a putting your chips in the middle of the table kind of move. High risk, high reward.
They may not be actively tanking but if they put up similar performances the way they did against Dallas then it won't matter. I also can't believe there isn't a guy in the front office that thinks (Wes?) they should consider tanking....even for a top 10 pick...instead of relying on the next star to become available. They had there chance at Mitchell and right or wrong they blinked and lost out on him!
IMO this was definitely thibs coaching 100% his decisions. No managing FO needs, analytic profiles, or egos. He went all in on defense, and for a night it worked. We are in such a better place than 3 years ago. NO to tanking. Getting the 1st pick is an impossible needle to thread. NO to waiting on a trade for a would be star - that rarely works out either. Stars are randomly found all over the draft board. Keep trying to win until we walk into a game changer.
Judging by Twitter and all the Hives, you can see many unhappy Knick’s fans combine a win into a tragedy. I just commented on this yesterday’s news letter. I prefer defense over offense any day. This game was a perfect example. I’ve never been happier with a win. Bench all the players who don’t pickup 90 feet on each play. Make RJ come off the bench, he’s still too young to give up on, and make him lose weight. I’m a league bowler. , no comparison to Basketball, except sometimes I roll a perfect Strike Ball, sometimes I roll a ball that isn’t that good but get a strike, they both look good on the scoreboard. Same in basketball , give me a win where every Knick plays perfectly or an ugly win like last night. They both look the same where it counts. I think with the talent we have we better count on winning ugly. Oh and I would take dogs like Brunson, Quickely,, Grimes and Robinson over all the other Prima Donna’s on the team. I can’t think of an uglier coach than Tom Thibodeau either.
Thanks.
NY's still chasing stars instead of building a team. Jackson, for all his many faults, wanted to construct a team that shared the ball and played defense. After Dolan sent Phil off to Montana with MSG millions, Mills and Perry initially claimed that they wanted to restore NY to the Riley/JVG hard nosed, tough, ready to rumble mode of play. And, Fizdale, from the Heat and the Griz, supposedly could coach that style of play.
Now, we are back to chasing stars! Who? Towns, Booker, Lavine, SGA, the next disgruntled CAA client? And, what, on a team, depleted of talent and future draft picks after the trade, is that going to accomplish??? One, there's no Michael or Lebron to trade for--- a singular talent that lifts his team and induces other star players to come play with him. Two, if such a talent were to emerge in the NBA, it's highly unlikely he would ever be traded. And, yes, there's a chance. Sure, it is possible. But, look at the haul the Jazz got for Rudy; trading for a star will cripple the Knicks.
Sure, they are impaired now, but there STILL is THE POSSIBILITY of building a team-----if the front office would just DO IT! I have always rejected tanking. I like honest competition. I think losing corrupts a team's culture. It is unfair to fans who have paid, in person and on cable/streaming, to see a good product. But, this team... something's off. Seems, RJ is either over compensating for his contract, troubled, or sulking because he was discussed in the trade talks. The Spida pursuit seems to have irreparably damaged their chemistry. This team needs a tear down [if JB can't save them].
The star gambit is a worthless strategy. The present is unsustainable. They have to go to the bottom to get to the top! The Spurs survived tanking for Duncan. As did the Rockets tanking for Sampson. It's time. Hinkie for GM.
Another good article
On the bright side, we won a game where we played 7 players 24 or younger + Randle (28) and Brunson (26). Is it fair to say we are basically playing the kids?
This was a crazy game and I agree with all the hand-wringing over what it means for this season and the future. One thing nobody is discussing was perhaps JB officially became the real leader of the team after the Dallas debacle. Calling out the players and their lack of "wanting it" more than their opponent in the second half of the game (or last 5 minutes) is so true for so many of the games this year (and last) and what happened tonight? -- an all out effort for 4 quarters! Yes, they are flawed and yes they are struggling to shoot this year, but they actually played their tails off and Mitch showed that so well at the end of the game to seal the win along with JB. Finally we had a whole team playing hard -- not just IQ, Grimes, Obi and JB -- and played with the grit of 2020-21. Against good teams, we have to win ugly as we can't 1) consistently shoot well enough and 2) can't outrun them while maintaining high energy defense and avoiding transition/turnover issues. We're a few lost opportunities in close games from being a 14-10 team! I agree that this squad is not a real contender (now or in the future) but they can be entertaining and reasonably make the postseason if they fall in line with JB and "want it." If JB has become their leader, sorry Tank Squad and sorry "Fire Thibs" folks -- they may get to 40-44 wins in spite of Thibs and the FO follies. JB has a coach he likes and his dad to protect -- and being the genuinely good guy he is, he'll fight to the death to make this squad not drop the rope.
Well done again Jon. I agree that Quick has been our second best player. We should not trade him. Why would we? Also, It looks tom me like Thibs has lost some on the team, not all. I think he lost Obi during the loss at home v OKC which i totally blame thibs for (maybe with help from Leon). And maybe Cam, but like Julius, Cam seems unreliable, inconsistent, and moody, he can go or stay for all I care. Lastly, I still think the key to unlocking this team is moving, or at least cutting back on minutes for, Randle. The team seems to see him as a leader and when our leader is an inconsistent, moody, low motor, turnover machine, of course his teammates are going to feed of that negative mo jo. And cutting back minutes to players who are not displaying a team first approach (yes you too RJ) is the best thing to do to help the team improve.
I’m totally confused and conflicted about this team fight now. The idea that the FO wants to trade for the next star that becomes available is BS to me. The idea that they want to keep the likes of IQ,Obi, Grimes and Deuce seem far fetched when you look at how they are deployed during games. I want to see those young guys play. Isn’t that why we didn’t trade them? Randle isn’t going anywhere if the team is still trying to make the play- in, so why are we holding Obis career hostage? We never should have drafted him at 8 when there were players in positions of need still on the board (Halliburton). Another reader said yhis and I’ll echo the statement, as soon as Leon Rose was hired Jalen Brunson was going to be a Knick. So firing Thibs now would damage that relationship because Rick Brunson might also get the boot. Sitting vets is not only a waste of good cap space but it weakens their trade value.
Lastly why the hell did we hire Jonnie Bryant and Walt Perrin if it wasn’t to bring Donovan Mitchell home to New York. Make it make sense. Danny Ainge looks like a freaking genius for passing on the Knicks offer at this point.
If Quickley, career 2nd unit most likely, has been the 2nd best player on our team and the best player is a debatable all star (I think he is), and our team is only 2 games under .500 then why is the coach getting flamed? It's actually a pretty impressive record all things considered. Btw I do think it's time to move on from Thibs but this is just as much, maybe more, a talent issue than bad coaching.
Long time listener and lurker, first time poster.
Really odd to hear the amount of people complaining about rotation minutes, for fringe rotation guys, in a game where we saw three of our young guards (of whom the usual malcontents protested weren't getting the minutes they deserve just last week) shut down the most dynamic backcourt in the game right now.
This week Cam doesn't get his fair share of run, next week it will be Quickly again. They blame Thibs, and pick and choose what boilerplate coach-speak they'll use against him when he is acting as SOLE communicator for the organization.
I would love nothing more than Randle and RJ buoyed from this team for peanuts. But the idea that you can just sit them is not based in reality.
Honest question; have these bellyachers managed anyone professionally? Your leaders are your leaders, demotions don't work. It poisons the office. Are we longing for days of “A leopard can't change its spots”?
I fall into the camp happy with this win. The question everyone had when the Knicks hired Thibs after his fall-out with KAT & Minnesota was can an old dog learn some new tricks. Can he reinvent himself to be a version of himself that's doesn't burn guys' ears off by the end of his tenure (see EVERY other tenure) and instead be a modified version, maybe even a guide for younger players? His first year seemed like evidence that he could in fact adapt....and then he revealed the stubborn goat that he is. I love the guy and I think/hope the FO went to him after the Dallas game and said, dude we've been asking you to change your scheme and defend the 3pt line better, you've said no...your ass is on the line and you can't just keep defending the paint like it's 1990. I saw the team make that adjustment. I saw him +Deuce and -DRose. It's not going to change overnight and yes, there were a ton of open 3s that the Cavs missed...but it looked better. It looked perhaps like this team was energized with a ray of light and shift in philosophy (however minor) and a desire to ask for more by winning. Firing Thibs is not going to turn this around. It may make it worse. Also why does everyone think Kenny Payne is going to automatically do everything Knicks fans want (i.e. play the kids, confront Ju on his D and RJ on his lack of passing when he's in a slump)? These will be significant and hard to deliver changes that may not even be in Kenny Payne's plan. Stick with Thibs and force some hard shifts from him...and everyone comes out better in the end.
Lol....I can't believe he could be that narrow minded. I'm sure he's aware of all the good, young players we have not drafted whether they are a lottery pick or not....and how can he not be aware of how good this draft is and how mediocre this team is at best with no real plan to add a piece to make them relevant. Whether the Knicks suck or not they will always have a packed house. It's not like it will effect his bottom line.,...plus it would be more fun to watch the young guys compete, but ultimately fail to make the playoffs!
trade machine Monday..
to expand on your idea last nite.. how about a Lakers blockbuster?
Westbrook, Pat Bev and Nunn to the KNICKS for Rose, Fournier, Randle and Cam
Lakers can move AD to the 5 and play AD, JR Lebron combo.. fournier and Rose become good bench pieces for Lebron and Cam is an asset they've been rumored to be interested..
for the Knicks i would send Westbrook home with a check.. Ive always loved PatBev's defense and attitude and Nunn is not really necessary just to make it 3:4
Knicks of course free up rotation spots for Deuce and OBI and are probably a better team long term.
Mitch, OBI, RJ, Grimes, JB start with Sims, IH, Quick, McBride, PBev off the bench
no picks going to the Knicks.. seems a reasonable reshuffle what am i missing? team seems a bit vertically challenged.. but we would see MORE SIMS
The one thing that it seems that everyone here is missing in their analysis of the Knicks thus far this season, is the strength of their schedule. If you really sit down and look at it, they’ve had a difficult run up until now, but after Atlanta, things generally seem to get much more favorable all the way up until the All-Star Game, then it is another grind down the stretch. The way things have historically played out, a record of .500 or better should at least get you into the top half of the play in (#7, #8). Maybe the East is a little better than in past years, the argument can certainly be made that the balance of power has shifted from West to East, but regardless it is hard to fathom any team finishing with a winning record and ending up with an #11 seed and going home.
So, we are in good shape. I think we will make a trade at the deadline. It may or may not be a blockbuster to bring in a centerpiece, I hope they do, but whatever happens I expect Leon Rose to continue the prudent policy of refusing to overpay in trades. Basically, the only player untouchable is Brunson, if only because it would set an awful precedent with future free agents to turn around and trade a guy you just signed to a major deal, you are basically telling the league that your word means nothing. I’m pretty sure everyone agrees that the objective is to get value for Randle to make room for Obi Toppin, but in the right deal with the right return, I’d hold on to Randle and move Obi, who wouldn’t? Grimes looks good, but I’d trade both him and Obi and a handful of #1s for SGA.
I think they’re clearly trying to showcase Deuce and Sims, although I could see Rose being a throw in on a trade for salary purposes with the understanding that he would get bought out to go chase a ring, and then going forward McBride becomes a 12 minute a night guy backing up Brunson. As for Sims, I see some real value in him in the league, the problem for him is that like Isiah Stewart in Detroit, he is a college Center, but he is too small at 6’8 to be an NBA center. I see both of those guys as 4s in the NBA, but you have to match them up with the right kind of personnel. If you were to pair up Sims with a Center who is more of a stretch 5, then you have something, but while he has talent and belongs in the league, we have a logjam at the 4, and he doesn’t really mesh well with either of our Centers.
Ideally, the move to make is to trade both Randle and Mitch Robinson, to upgrade the Center position. Originally, I said the target should be Ayton, but I don’t think Phoenix will make a move if they’re the #1 seed. So, the question becomes, do you want Karl Anthony Towns here?
There is so much to unpack in that one loaded question, I’m not even going to try to answer it, but it would certainly qualify as a putting your chips in the middle of the table kind of move. High risk, high reward.
They may not be actively tanking but if they put up similar performances the way they did against Dallas then it won't matter. I also can't believe there isn't a guy in the front office that thinks (Wes?) they should consider tanking....even for a top 10 pick...instead of relying on the next star to become available. They had there chance at Mitchell and right or wrong they blinked and lost out on him!
Thibs not getting fired for living in the 90s b/c the team won 92 to 81 is on brand
1. Randle + IHart <--> Ayton
2. Mitch <--> Gary Trent Jr
3. Rose + Cam <--> Beverly + Nunn + Small Asset (stole yours here)
-We trade 5 rotation players for 2
-Ditch some longer term money (used for an IQ extension?)
-Spacing improves
-Sims joins the rotation at backup 5 which makes his contract incredibly valuable
-Obi plays and....Randle is adiossssss***