Simmons made a good point on his podcast about OG and Bridges - you can watch long stretches of Knicks games and forget they are even on the team, 5 number 1’s and $40 million should get you way more production out of those 2.
The margins of error when it comes to coaching and player performance become so minimal against the top teams. You can afford a bad Thibs night with multiple defensive no shows and still beat bad/tanking teams or mediocre teams like the Pacers or Heat. This hasn’t and will not cut it against actual championship contenders. I am not calling for Thibs’ head (although I would really like to see him bring in forward-thinking young assistants including a new Asst HC) but the loud calls will be coming for the likes of Jay Wright and Johnny Bryant if we see anything resembling these last 2 games in the postseason.
Big mistake to let him go, especially when he just took a lateral role. I don’t think there is a single person who thought their coaching staff didn’t get considerably worse swapping out Bryant for Mo Cheeks.
We can discuss coaching changes but the top teams that we are supposedly measuring the Knicks against have multiple rim protectors. The Knicks have had zero rim protection all season. Teams regularly abuse KAT in the pick and roll and otherwise get to the basket with impunity. Almost every single time. The team also lacks shot creators. Outside of Brunson, who’s the best at breaking down someone off the dribble? Payne? (While KAT can do it, it’s more of a straight line drive where the ball is almost never kicked out). There is a roster construction problem whether we’d like to admit it or not. It’s good, but it’s not championship level.
What if I told you we drafted a 7 foot center who averages 2.5 blocks / 36 minutes .... and we drafted a point guard that every analyst comped to Brunson, who looked really good in summer league and the G-League showcase but can't get minutes for some reason ... and what if I told you we drafted a 6'8" big wing that's a 3 point shooter who can't get minutes for some reason ... because our coach doesn't play rookies and he wants to prioritize Jericho / Precious, Cam Payne, and Shamet ... what if we had a coach that would played the bench and let them develop over the course of the season ...
Mentioned in our chat: A story as old as time, yet told in today’s tongue: wild expectations set sky-high by fans, crashing soon into a cold dose of reality checks. Out of the ruins from the darks of last night and shattered dreams emerge wild claims, unreasonable comparisons, firing/benching protests and trading shenanigans tossed around like the latest meme.
Sometimes, the best move is to pause—to simply chill the rest of the season, root for the players we have and their developments, and let the slow burn of summer front office work its magic.
As a diehard Knicks fan that loves watching every game even if they lose badly, is so saddened by the state of the fan base. Knicks Twitter is so toxic. It used to be a place I go to conversate with Knicks fans. Now everyone is right, different opinions are wrong, desire to fire the coach is above everything else, and we forgot to root for the team on the court. Hope this adversity the team faces is something they can learn from, and I hope this adversity is something this fanbase can learn from as well.
Thank you for the reply. I needed it after this weekend. No matter how poorly they played I still can’t wait for the next game against the 76ers. Best part about being a fan. Sometimes all you have is yourself and your team.
I agree with the others on here...OG and Bridges need to step up and find out where they fit and soon....Also with Thibs...I was besides myself when he put KAT back in...is he an idiot
I'm definitely starting to lean towards trading one of OG or Bridges after this season. Probably OG just because it would provide us with a lot of savings and you'd be selling low on Bridges after this season.
"He said he was fine" Thibs postgame comment about putting KAT back into an already decided game when he was obviously limping & needed to stay out of the game. What the hell was he (And the medical staff) thinking??? This was just coaching malpractice! Players need to be kept in check by their coaches/medical staff, as unless they broke something or can't walk, they're going to want to renter a game! It's the nature of the beast! As someone who has never been a member of the Thibs fan club, I've tried this season to be more mellow about his coaching "expertise". But, he continues to do moronic things that make me question whether he truly is the coach that can lead us to The Promised Land (a great Springsteen song!)!
Another in game decision that left me asking Why?, was Landry Shamet seeing NO minutes in the second half, after being one of the few bright spots in the first half (6 points on 2-3 3 point shooting along with 2 rebounds, an assist & solid defense in 5 & a half minutes).
As far as the game itself, OG & Mikal were MIA for the offense (MB had 8 of his 14 points in the last 2 minutes in garbage time). Online, various people praised OG's defense against the Celtics. However, correct me if I'm wrong, OG is the highest paid Knick (maybe KAT is now, correct me if needed) & we could have spent a hell of a lot less for a defensive specialist. This team will never get to the next level unless these 2 step up their games!
Speaking of stepping up one's game, Deuce, most games, brings nothing to the game. Two points last night (finally hit a FG in the last 5 minutes of the game) on 1-7 shooting (0-4 on 3's). He's supposed to be the 6th man, the guy who can bring instant offense to the game. Most nights, it doesn't happen. When we look at both blowouts this weekend, the major difference (along with lack of size) is the bench. The Cavs & Celtics can run out numerous players to maintain the excellence established by their starters. We, on the other hand, run out Deuce, Cam, Shamet & Precious, who more often than not, aren't a positive. Watching the Cavs game Friday night, the point was made that the difference between the 2023 & 2025 Cavs teams is the bench & that will be the major area that needs to be addressed in this off season if we can ever get to The Promised Land!
I've worn my (Leon) Rose-Colored glasses for most of this season, dismissing the early blowouts as part of the learning curve that the adding of 2 new starters brings. This weekend made me take them off completely & wonder if we'll even get by the Pistons in the first round! I've given Leon the benefit of the doubt in every instance, as he brought this team back to relevancy. Yet, one has to wonder if using all his assets for a role player in Mikal Bridges, has limited his ability to make this team better going forward. And, if he realizes this team is far from a finished product, he needs to move some of the starting 5 to do so!
The one positive of the weekend, for those of us who are Optimum customers, is that MSG/Altice settled their differences & the Knicks will be back on the MSG Network. Fubo was a great replacement over the past 2 months, but I'm happy to have it back on my cable. Interestingly, the next game is against the 76'ers & the guy who put Mitch out may be done for the season. And maybe, we get to see Mitch make his season's debut vs them!
this is all depressing, but ultimately will make us better. like others have said- the two top teams have years of continuity , and we're at year one. i do think a lineup change might be in order real soon though. When Mitch re-emerges this week, start him and Deuce. hart and bridges come off the bench. And sorry precious, but a combo of huk and dadiet get your spot. then let's see what happens. if it goes sideways, at least you've learned something.
Knicks have 2.5 prime time players on the team. Last yr we had 4 and 2 are now gone. Mikal, OG, and Deuce are too inconsistent and mostly dominate bad teams. Thibs inability to innovate or makes adjustments makes this team forced to win almost purely on talent. You would think after 5yrs of being terrible at guarding the 3 they would try zone. After precious being ass in every match up with premier teams he would lose minutes to huk or cam and shamet playing more when mikal running cardio until the last 2 mins
The fact they are 37-13 against the rest of the league and 0-7 vs the Celtics Thunder and Cavs tell me 1 of 2 things.
1) They either have a massive fundamental flaw that these powerhouses continue to abuse
or
2) they lacking the mental capacity at this point to get over that hump.
I think its a combo of both.
The fundamental flaw is easy to pin - KAT is bad in pick n roll coverage especially when playing drop.
Will Mitchell Robinson's return help? It should as when healthy he's been one of the best defensive centers in the league. And we've seen KAT play alongside a player of Robinson's archetype and have a top 3 defense in the league.
But will it? The coach is insane. Sometimes in a good way, but his inflexibility may not let this issue disappear. Knicks run more drop coverage then any team in the league, your insane if you do the same thing over and over expecting different results - especially against elite teams with deadly pull-up shooters.
What I think is interesting from we've seen in these matchups is the Knicks slow 1st quarter starts. And it's not just on the defensive end. The offense, particularly in the last 2 games has come out slow, stagnant and without force.
I go back to their first test of the season, @OKC on Jan 3rd. Knicks came out guns blazing. They played their best offensive game the entire season through 3 quarters. And then went completely flat in the 4th.
If you tracking the team on the daily, you know how much of an emotional drain that was.
I think they are still searching mentally for the confidence and comradery that is required to beat those teams.
Something they thought they had, and have been searching for it ever since.
Without it, we've seen 20+ first quarter deficits to these 3 teams since.
Is it the roster? Is it Thibs? The rest of the season will give us a ton of information on answering that question as the Knicks try to cement themselves as a true title contender next season and beyond.
Theres a 25 game window here for the Knicks to see what a real center looks like with Towns, how they can get OG and Mikal going, how they approach big games, do they make adjustments on the fly or does Thibs say true to his principles.
Get yourself ready for Round 2 Game 1 at Boston. All the questions will be answered then.
Aside from Thibs, how do we get under Mikal’s skin and light a fire underneath him?
Bridges is logging a career-high in minutes (#FireThibs), yet he’s posting below his career averages in:
• 3PT%
• FT%
• Rebounds
• Steals
And he’s at a three-year low in PPG.
Yes, roles differ, and adjustments are needed with JB and KAT in the mix unlike prior seasons. But what we saw from Mikal in garbage time is exactly what we need from the start.
On what you said last night - is it the fact they didn’t tank or they didn’t hit a homerun when they did have high picks?
On the starting lineup: we know what Brunson and KAT are and they have lived up to it. The wings are underperforming and skill sets are redundant. None of the 3 are playing great on defense, all are good one on one none are great navigating screens or vs small quick guards. Offense: none are great shooters or can shoot from deep, Bridges and OG good from corners none can shoot above the break, Josh just won’t shoot. Hart can penetrate a little and Mikal can pull up midrange some need more from all 3 or make a change
Simmons made a good point on his podcast about OG and Bridges - you can watch long stretches of Knicks games and forget they are even on the team, 5 number 1’s and $40 million should get you way more production out of those 2.
OG and Bridges had more combined TOs this weekend than combined rebounds.
I got some flack in the chat for saying maybe Thibs could try some new stuff but; maybe Thibs could try some new stuff?
no flack here!
You need to get down and dirty in the game chat. It can get ugly!
lol I watched that ab and then decided I had seen enough spring training for the season
That place got way too positive for me. lol
We’ll always have Juan Soto
First at bat!
The margins of error when it comes to coaching and player performance become so minimal against the top teams. You can afford a bad Thibs night with multiple defensive no shows and still beat bad/tanking teams or mediocre teams like the Pacers or Heat. This hasn’t and will not cut it against actual championship contenders. I am not calling for Thibs’ head (although I would really like to see him bring in forward-thinking young assistants including a new Asst HC) but the loud calls will be coming for the likes of Jay Wright and Johnny Bryant if we see anything resembling these last 2 games in the postseason.
Unfortunately the Cavs stole Johnny Bryant away and Donovan Mitchell has never looked better.
Cleveland has a great progressive coaching duo. I had actually wanted Thibs to get the boot awhile ago and elevate Bryant.
Big mistake to let him go, especially when he just took a lateral role. I don’t think there is a single person who thought their coaching staff didn’t get considerably worse swapping out Bryant for Mo Cheeks.
We can discuss coaching changes but the top teams that we are supposedly measuring the Knicks against have multiple rim protectors. The Knicks have had zero rim protection all season. Teams regularly abuse KAT in the pick and roll and otherwise get to the basket with impunity. Almost every single time. The team also lacks shot creators. Outside of Brunson, who’s the best at breaking down someone off the dribble? Payne? (While KAT can do it, it’s more of a straight line drive where the ball is almost never kicked out). There is a roster construction problem whether we’d like to admit it or not. It’s good, but it’s not championship level.
What if I told you we drafted a 7 foot center who averages 2.5 blocks / 36 minutes .... and we drafted a point guard that every analyst comped to Brunson, who looked really good in summer league and the G-League showcase but can't get minutes for some reason ... and what if I told you we drafted a 6'8" big wing that's a 3 point shooter who can't get minutes for some reason ... because our coach doesn't play rookies and he wants to prioritize Jericho / Precious, Cam Payne, and Shamet ... what if we had a coach that would played the bench and let them develop over the course of the season ...
Mentioned in our chat: A story as old as time, yet told in today’s tongue: wild expectations set sky-high by fans, crashing soon into a cold dose of reality checks. Out of the ruins from the darks of last night and shattered dreams emerge wild claims, unreasonable comparisons, firing/benching protests and trading shenanigans tossed around like the latest meme.
Sometimes, the best move is to pause—to simply chill the rest of the season, root for the players we have and their developments, and let the slow burn of summer front office work its magic.
For more on the art of doing nothing and avoiding hustle culture that NYC the city that never sleeps, definitely check this out: https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/from-dolce-far-niente-to-nishkriya-other-cultures-embrace-doing-nothing-what-americans-can-learn-from-them-110046496.html
Going to take the time to read this today, thank you as always for chiming in Ganesh.
Happy Birthday, Delores
The lineup data jon mentioned with precious and hart vs the other lineups is kind of astonishing
It is obvious that teams don't guard them on the perimeter. That's how we beat the Cavs in the playoffs 2 years ago ignoring Isaac Okoro.
That’s what’s so Frustrating!
As a diehard Knicks fan that loves watching every game even if they lose badly, is so saddened by the state of the fan base. Knicks Twitter is so toxic. It used to be a place I go to conversate with Knicks fans. Now everyone is right, different opinions are wrong, desire to fire the coach is above everything else, and we forgot to root for the team on the court. Hope this adversity the team faces is something they can learn from, and I hope this adversity is something this fanbase can learn from as well.
Wise words right here. Part of why I don’t go on Twitter anymore
Thank you for the reply. I needed it after this weekend. No matter how poorly they played I still can’t wait for the next game against the 76ers. Best part about being a fan. Sometimes all you have is yourself and your team.
I agree with the others on here...OG and Bridges need to step up and find out where they fit and soon....Also with Thibs...I was besides myself when he put KAT back in...is he an idiot
I'm definitely starting to lean towards trading one of OG or Bridges after this season. Probably OG just because it would provide us with a lot of savings and you'd be selling low on Bridges after this season.
"He said he was fine" Thibs postgame comment about putting KAT back into an already decided game when he was obviously limping & needed to stay out of the game. What the hell was he (And the medical staff) thinking??? This was just coaching malpractice! Players need to be kept in check by their coaches/medical staff, as unless they broke something or can't walk, they're going to want to renter a game! It's the nature of the beast! As someone who has never been a member of the Thibs fan club, I've tried this season to be more mellow about his coaching "expertise". But, he continues to do moronic things that make me question whether he truly is the coach that can lead us to The Promised Land (a great Springsteen song!)!
Another in game decision that left me asking Why?, was Landry Shamet seeing NO minutes in the second half, after being one of the few bright spots in the first half (6 points on 2-3 3 point shooting along with 2 rebounds, an assist & solid defense in 5 & a half minutes).
As far as the game itself, OG & Mikal were MIA for the offense (MB had 8 of his 14 points in the last 2 minutes in garbage time). Online, various people praised OG's defense against the Celtics. However, correct me if I'm wrong, OG is the highest paid Knick (maybe KAT is now, correct me if needed) & we could have spent a hell of a lot less for a defensive specialist. This team will never get to the next level unless these 2 step up their games!
Speaking of stepping up one's game, Deuce, most games, brings nothing to the game. Two points last night (finally hit a FG in the last 5 minutes of the game) on 1-7 shooting (0-4 on 3's). He's supposed to be the 6th man, the guy who can bring instant offense to the game. Most nights, it doesn't happen. When we look at both blowouts this weekend, the major difference (along with lack of size) is the bench. The Cavs & Celtics can run out numerous players to maintain the excellence established by their starters. We, on the other hand, run out Deuce, Cam, Shamet & Precious, who more often than not, aren't a positive. Watching the Cavs game Friday night, the point was made that the difference between the 2023 & 2025 Cavs teams is the bench & that will be the major area that needs to be addressed in this off season if we can ever get to The Promised Land!
I've worn my (Leon) Rose-Colored glasses for most of this season, dismissing the early blowouts as part of the learning curve that the adding of 2 new starters brings. This weekend made me take them off completely & wonder if we'll even get by the Pistons in the first round! I've given Leon the benefit of the doubt in every instance, as he brought this team back to relevancy. Yet, one has to wonder if using all his assets for a role player in Mikal Bridges, has limited his ability to make this team better going forward. And, if he realizes this team is far from a finished product, he needs to move some of the starting 5 to do so!
The one positive of the weekend, for those of us who are Optimum customers, is that MSG/Altice settled their differences & the Knicks will be back on the MSG Network. Fubo was a great replacement over the past 2 months, but I'm happy to have it back on my cable. Interestingly, the next game is against the 76'ers & the guy who put Mitch out may be done for the season. And maybe, we get to see Mitch make his season's debut vs them!
this is all depressing, but ultimately will make us better. like others have said- the two top teams have years of continuity , and we're at year one. i do think a lineup change might be in order real soon though. When Mitch re-emerges this week, start him and Deuce. hart and bridges come off the bench. And sorry precious, but a combo of huk and dadiet get your spot. then let's see what happens. if it goes sideways, at least you've learned something.
Knicks have 2.5 prime time players on the team. Last yr we had 4 and 2 are now gone. Mikal, OG, and Deuce are too inconsistent and mostly dominate bad teams. Thibs inability to innovate or makes adjustments makes this team forced to win almost purely on talent. You would think after 5yrs of being terrible at guarding the 3 they would try zone. After precious being ass in every match up with premier teams he would lose minutes to huk or cam and shamet playing more when mikal running cardio until the last 2 mins
The fact they are 37-13 against the rest of the league and 0-7 vs the Celtics Thunder and Cavs tell me 1 of 2 things.
1) They either have a massive fundamental flaw that these powerhouses continue to abuse
or
2) they lacking the mental capacity at this point to get over that hump.
I think its a combo of both.
The fundamental flaw is easy to pin - KAT is bad in pick n roll coverage especially when playing drop.
Will Mitchell Robinson's return help? It should as when healthy he's been one of the best defensive centers in the league. And we've seen KAT play alongside a player of Robinson's archetype and have a top 3 defense in the league.
But will it? The coach is insane. Sometimes in a good way, but his inflexibility may not let this issue disappear. Knicks run more drop coverage then any team in the league, your insane if you do the same thing over and over expecting different results - especially against elite teams with deadly pull-up shooters.
What I think is interesting from we've seen in these matchups is the Knicks slow 1st quarter starts. And it's not just on the defensive end. The offense, particularly in the last 2 games has come out slow, stagnant and without force.
I go back to their first test of the season, @OKC on Jan 3rd. Knicks came out guns blazing. They played their best offensive game the entire season through 3 quarters. And then went completely flat in the 4th.
If you tracking the team on the daily, you know how much of an emotional drain that was.
I think they are still searching mentally for the confidence and comradery that is required to beat those teams.
Something they thought they had, and have been searching for it ever since.
Without it, we've seen 20+ first quarter deficits to these 3 teams since.
Is it the roster? Is it Thibs? The rest of the season will give us a ton of information on answering that question as the Knicks try to cement themselves as a true title contender next season and beyond.
Theres a 25 game window here for the Knicks to see what a real center looks like with Towns, how they can get OG and Mikal going, how they approach big games, do they make adjustments on the fly or does Thibs say true to his principles.
Get yourself ready for Round 2 Game 1 at Boston. All the questions will be answered then.
Aside from Thibs, how do we get under Mikal’s skin and light a fire underneath him?
Bridges is logging a career-high in minutes (#FireThibs), yet he’s posting below his career averages in:
• 3PT%
• FT%
• Rebounds
• Steals
And he’s at a three-year low in PPG.
Yes, roles differ, and adjustments are needed with JB and KAT in the mix unlike prior seasons. But what we saw from Mikal in garbage time is exactly what we need from the start.
Grateful that we have a thoughtful forum to vent. Thank you Jon.
least I can do Andrew
On what you said last night - is it the fact they didn’t tank or they didn’t hit a homerun when they did have high picks?
On the starting lineup: we know what Brunson and KAT are and they have lived up to it. The wings are underperforming and skill sets are redundant. None of the 3 are playing great on defense, all are good one on one none are great navigating screens or vs small quick guards. Offense: none are great shooters or can shoot from deep, Bridges and OG good from corners none can shoot above the break, Josh just won’t shoot. Hart can penetrate a little and Mikal can pull up midrange some need more from all 3 or make a change
could be either. Fair point. although the 2 "misses" - RJ over Garland and Obi over Hali - helped Brunson get here.