I thought about your point on Grimes' defense. I wonder if the POA defense of suffering (in addition to always having the hardest cover, second year in the league, and general fatigue) because of less minutes with IQ. When IQ is it there, he has another reliable POA defender (with some size) that he can switch with, which he can't reliably do with RJ. A Caruso would help a bunch with his defense.
On the Post game, you talked about people complaining about bad movement last night. And I think you were absolutely right to push back because we had the most assists will season. That said, I think even you would say our movement fails the eye test. I'm sure people are clamoring for more back cuts, weak side screens, and more off ball motion as opposed to a Randle pass out of a double. I'm less particular on how we move the ball. But if this team is being built to eventually compete in a playoff series, the latter is a lot easier to manipulate against us. I think it's why we see so many 2-3 zones. No question just a thought.
The Knicks offense reminds me of the Harden Rockets a little. I remember Mike D talking about the team and saying at first he was trying to copy the Spurs with all this fancy off ball movement but then he realized it wasn't helping. The opposing team was going to double James regardless and all the off ball stuff did was shuffle his players locations. He basically said he perferred his best corner shooter to just stand in the corner and wait. Our offense right now doesn't seem much different. I do question the sustainability of its effectiveness. I don't think it will fall off a cliff but maybe we've seen its high point. Randle and Jalen aren't as good as James. Randle's Dec is won't be his baseline. I'm not sure what it is but its not that good. Also teams are already starting to load up on Randle and Brunson more and neither is the type of passer James is.
I think this is a great point. Really appreciate this. Mike D was absolutely right and barring a horrible shooting show of a Game 7 and a Chris Paul injury, that Rockets team makes the Finals.
I think your point leans more into the FO, Thibs and their task at hand. You can lean on a James Harden if you have a James Harden. But I think the point here is that Mike D still tried a something else. I think 1) the Knicks are failing to maximize their options as an offense until they try a something else, 2) bringing in Brunson is ironic because he's going from a iso-Luka heavy offense to an iso-Julius heavy offense and can thrive in this role just like CP did with Harden, and 3) I-Hart, Obi, Grimes, IQ, and even Cam (as a slasher) are guys whose skillset are more optimize in more motion heavy, pass happy offenses. Styles where they have to curb their ball-stopping/ball-watching instincts would probably be best for their development and use. FO should either nudge something in that direction on offense or recoup them for talent that fits better with the Iso-heavy offense. Which I sincerely do think can lead to a good playoff team.
You might be onto something Jason. I am working my way up to it, but after some initial doubt, I'm starting to think Caruso may be the ideal trade candidate for this team.
Re: the ball movement, where I struggle with that is 2-fold: the playoffs always get more iso-heavy, not less, and this team just doesn't have enough great passers / quick decision makers.
Isolation play increases but that doesn't mean the team that relies on it most heavily generally wins. I'd guess the opposition is still true. I think GS beats the Celtics more often then the LeBron/Kyrie Cavs beat GS. You need good isolation play in the playoffs but you probably also need other offense just as much if not more. I think if you play well enough any style of play can win in the playoffs. The misnormer is we can identifies what wins. Sometimes the Warriors win and somtimes the LeBron and Kyrie clearing out wins. I think what loses more often then not are teams that lean too hard into one identity
Flexibility is absolutely the key. IMO what makes GS so special is they get all the benefits of iso play (a generational superstar bending the defense) but without all the usual drawbacks (selfish play, no off-ball movement). That's why there's a great argument that Curry is a top 3 player of the last 2 decades, along with LeBron and Duncan.
I don't want to harp on Brunson, as after all, he is one of my favorite players and is the biggest reason for our success, but, I have not been a huge fan of his overall offensive process over the last 5 games, specifically when it comes to his offensive initiation. His passing numbers and assists have all gone down over this losing streak (APG, Assist%, Assist Usage, Assist PTS Created, and Potential Assists to point out a few #s), and this has been happening despite the fact that he is passing roughly the same amount of times per game over the last 5 games, as the entire season. Now I know these stats don't paint the full picture and our offense has still been relatively good (as you pointed out with total assists over the last 2 games), but as of late, I've found myself frustrated at times with how's he's approaching possessions. I might be wrong in saying all of this and I still have full confidence in him as a player leading us forward. Hopefully my perceived slump of his will end soon!
On a different note, watching these last few games without Mitch has led me to believe that the team knows that their best chance to win without him is on the offensive side of the ball. That is why we have seen a much more concentrated and focused effort on offense, since they understand that they can't rely on their defense to hold for an entire game.
I have to think he's still adjusting to a new role, and by that I mean that the toughest thing for any scorer to do (IMO) is to know when NOT to try and score. I have faith he will continue to improve. And good point on the Mitch / offense thing!
During a previous losing streak it became clear to me that if opposing teams "cut the head off the snake" and take away Brunson things are bleak for this team.
"That is why we have seen a much more concentrated and focused effort on offense, since they understand that they can't rely on their defense to hold for an entire game."
If that statement is in fact true, wrap your mind around just how pathetic that is! We can't walk and chew gum at the same time? Is the expectation that we play offense OR defense?
I mean it is extremely pathetic and obv its not completely true, but if we are being honest, without Mitch, their best chance of winning games is on the offensive end. Additionally, looking at some players on the roster like Randle and RJ, it certainly has been the case that at times throughout their Knick careers, they only try on offense and do nothing defensively.
I think if you look at the course of Thibs career - from Noah to KAT to now here in NY - the backstop is the bellwether. Taj was massively underrated. Plus, having Burks' size was helpful, although the D didn't really pick up until IQ Kemba left the rotation. More than anything, they're just in a bad stretch right now and these 2 opponents are really bad matchups for them when they aren't fully healthy.
He plays defense like he's got 5 fouls and averages 40 points-lol. To be fair, he may be a player who makes slow but steady improvement throughout his career, not huge leaps.
I audibly LOL's Tim, but the funnier thing is that you're not wrong.
Here's my issue with your second point: He was MUCH better in his second year, worse last year, and even worse this year. At this rate, maybe he can be Enes Kanter by year-eight.
It's not only his defense....he gives you basically nothing on the boards as well. While his lack of athleticism will limit his ceiling as a defender, I think the overarching issue is his lack of tenacity and fight. It's as if he has turned into last year Julius! No loose balls, no tough rebounds, no second effort, no effort to fight through screens...and now we can't even hide him on the defensive side of the ball. While there are improvements in his offensive game, his atrocious defense and lack of hustle plays is extremely disappointing, to say the least.
Not indulging in hurtful things like when I was a boy, I turned this game off early and watched Winnie the Pooh with my kids. I appreciate your Julius love, because it runs counter to my burgeoning dislike of his game. While the counting stats are elite-ish, it feels like Diet Coke. So many heat checks, missed passes, and slow processes. Even when the outcome is good, I don't feel great about it, the opposite of how I feel with Brunson. IMO we've seen the peak of this roster, and it is time to change some pieces.
Good decision by you Matsuko. Really enjoyed that ride in Disney too.
Re: Julius, I'm trying hard to be fair because I was so hard on him last year and he's more or less doing all the things I said "if you show me this, all is forgiven." Brunson is also my cup of tea.
Knicks fans are missing the bigger context. Yes, the Knicks peaked at 25-19 and top 10 offense, defense and net ratings, but they did so playing the 3rd easiest schedule in the entire league. Now that they are facing the 3rd hardest schedule for the remainder of the season, they don’t have a prayer of matching their performance up to this point.
The Knicks have a less talented roster now than they did two years ago. With the loss of vets like Burks and Taj and the decline of Rose they’ve gone from having one of the best benches in the league to one of the worst. They traded away a late lottery pick with several good players still available (who have already become core bench players on the teams that selected them). The guards and wings don’t have the length and athleticism to compete with modern NBA rosters. Obi and iHart are poor fits for the Knicks scheme. The Knicks are trying to win with only 2/3 of a functional roster, wearing out their All-Stars in the process. Add up all the roster deficits and the Knicks ceiling is probably 5+ games below .500; with Mitch’s injury they could be 5 game below .500 by the All-Star break.
I agree with your analysis, but even if Thibs implemented it all it would only win them a handful of games at the margin. For the Knicks to step up in class they need a roster overhaul. There’s no sense Knicks fans beating their collective heads against the wall in frustration when the roster is nowhere close to being competitive.
I don't disagree that ultimately this is a roster built to go around .500 at best. I also agree that the 25-19 record certainly led to a decent amount of the consternation we're hearing. That said, I also think there are some fair things to gripe about.
so jon, what do you think of this....Obi comes back and we lose our mo jo. is there a correlation? now mitch is out and things get worse. i wonder if sims playing alongside hartenstein worked better than obi for defense and rebounding? obi and ihart seem to be limited players and with mitch out this gets really challenging.
What I don’t get is the seeming lack of coaching or accountability for RJs poor defense. He’s simply not showing real improvement in this aspect of his game. He’ s overpaid!
Tom is not a bad coach. Tom is a good coach. Tom is not the only coach that could lead this team to a .500 or so record. Tom is the only coach for which there are 0 avenues to 20 plus mins a night for Obi Toppin with this roster.
My guess - and its just a guess - is that Thibs would point to their overall offensive rating and tell you that scoring isn't the issue, and then say something about what's best for the team being the important thing. And as much as everyone wants to murder him for his inflexibility, he wouldn't be totally wrong with those sentiments.
We're a good offensive team, but we try too often for the homerun pass when doubled as opposed to going for the hockey assist.. So we made more turnovers last night than normal.
And he'd be full of it b/c its not a new devleopement. He's made it clear that he feels it is an unplayable lineup and he won't go to it outside of desperation. Letting Obi be the first big off the bench for the next 14 games would give you a little sample to look at it and all you would be losing is 6 Hartinstein mins a night. KILLING IS JUSTIFIED.
Doesn't look good IMO. I think Hart is better then Noel was last year and that was when Randle wasn't giving you good offense. Maybe if another center goes down. I think Thibs sees more potential viablity in Hart playing with Sims then he does in Randle/Toppin.
I thought about your point on Grimes' defense. I wonder if the POA defense of suffering (in addition to always having the hardest cover, second year in the league, and general fatigue) because of less minutes with IQ. When IQ is it there, he has another reliable POA defender (with some size) that he can switch with, which he can't reliably do with RJ. A Caruso would help a bunch with his defense.
On the Post game, you talked about people complaining about bad movement last night. And I think you were absolutely right to push back because we had the most assists will season. That said, I think even you would say our movement fails the eye test. I'm sure people are clamoring for more back cuts, weak side screens, and more off ball motion as opposed to a Randle pass out of a double. I'm less particular on how we move the ball. But if this team is being built to eventually compete in a playoff series, the latter is a lot easier to manipulate against us. I think it's why we see so many 2-3 zones. No question just a thought.
The Knicks offense reminds me of the Harden Rockets a little. I remember Mike D talking about the team and saying at first he was trying to copy the Spurs with all this fancy off ball movement but then he realized it wasn't helping. The opposing team was going to double James regardless and all the off ball stuff did was shuffle his players locations. He basically said he perferred his best corner shooter to just stand in the corner and wait. Our offense right now doesn't seem much different. I do question the sustainability of its effectiveness. I don't think it will fall off a cliff but maybe we've seen its high point. Randle and Jalen aren't as good as James. Randle's Dec is won't be his baseline. I'm not sure what it is but its not that good. Also teams are already starting to load up on Randle and Brunson more and neither is the type of passer James is.
I think this is a great point. Really appreciate this. Mike D was absolutely right and barring a horrible shooting show of a Game 7 and a Chris Paul injury, that Rockets team makes the Finals.
I think your point leans more into the FO, Thibs and their task at hand. You can lean on a James Harden if you have a James Harden. But I think the point here is that Mike D still tried a something else. I think 1) the Knicks are failing to maximize their options as an offense until they try a something else, 2) bringing in Brunson is ironic because he's going from a iso-Luka heavy offense to an iso-Julius heavy offense and can thrive in this role just like CP did with Harden, and 3) I-Hart, Obi, Grimes, IQ, and even Cam (as a slasher) are guys whose skillset are more optimize in more motion heavy, pass happy offenses. Styles where they have to curb their ball-stopping/ball-watching instincts would probably be best for their development and use. FO should either nudge something in that direction on offense or recoup them for talent that fits better with the Iso-heavy offense. Which I sincerely do think can lead to a good playoff team.
You might be onto something Jason. I am working my way up to it, but after some initial doubt, I'm starting to think Caruso may be the ideal trade candidate for this team.
Re: the ball movement, where I struggle with that is 2-fold: the playoffs always get more iso-heavy, not less, and this team just doesn't have enough great passers / quick decision makers.
Isolation play increases but that doesn't mean the team that relies on it most heavily generally wins. I'd guess the opposition is still true. I think GS beats the Celtics more often then the LeBron/Kyrie Cavs beat GS. You need good isolation play in the playoffs but you probably also need other offense just as much if not more. I think if you play well enough any style of play can win in the playoffs. The misnormer is we can identifies what wins. Sometimes the Warriors win and somtimes the LeBron and Kyrie clearing out wins. I think what loses more often then not are teams that lean too hard into one identity
Flexibility is absolutely the key. IMO what makes GS so special is they get all the benefits of iso play (a generational superstar bending the defense) but without all the usual drawbacks (selfish play, no off-ball movement). That's why there's a great argument that Curry is a top 3 player of the last 2 decades, along with LeBron and Duncan.
Two thoughts:
I don't want to harp on Brunson, as after all, he is one of my favorite players and is the biggest reason for our success, but, I have not been a huge fan of his overall offensive process over the last 5 games, specifically when it comes to his offensive initiation. His passing numbers and assists have all gone down over this losing streak (APG, Assist%, Assist Usage, Assist PTS Created, and Potential Assists to point out a few #s), and this has been happening despite the fact that he is passing roughly the same amount of times per game over the last 5 games, as the entire season. Now I know these stats don't paint the full picture and our offense has still been relatively good (as you pointed out with total assists over the last 2 games), but as of late, I've found myself frustrated at times with how's he's approaching possessions. I might be wrong in saying all of this and I still have full confidence in him as a player leading us forward. Hopefully my perceived slump of his will end soon!
On a different note, watching these last few games without Mitch has led me to believe that the team knows that their best chance to win without him is on the offensive side of the ball. That is why we have seen a much more concentrated and focused effort on offense, since they understand that they can't rely on their defense to hold for an entire game.
I have to think he's still adjusting to a new role, and by that I mean that the toughest thing for any scorer to do (IMO) is to know when NOT to try and score. I have faith he will continue to improve. And good point on the Mitch / offense thing!
During a previous losing streak it became clear to me that if opposing teams "cut the head off the snake" and take away Brunson things are bleak for this team.
"That is why we have seen a much more concentrated and focused effort on offense, since they understand that they can't rely on their defense to hold for an entire game."
If that statement is in fact true, wrap your mind around just how pathetic that is! We can't walk and chew gum at the same time? Is the expectation that we play offense OR defense?
I mean it is extremely pathetic and obv its not completely true, but if we are being honest, without Mitch, their best chance of winning games is on the offensive end. Additionally, looking at some players on the roster like Randle and RJ, it certainly has been the case that at times throughout their Knick careers, they only try on offense and do nothing defensively.
Our defense was top 10 last year with Mitch out a lot. Were Taj and AB that good or is IHart that bad or is it something else?
Taj was a solid back up - definitely missing him since Hart fell off
I think if you look at the course of Thibs career - from Noah to KAT to now here in NY - the backstop is the bellwether. Taj was massively underrated. Plus, having Burks' size was helpful, although the D didn't really pick up until IQ Kemba left the rotation. More than anything, they're just in a bad stretch right now and these 2 opponents are really bad matchups for them when they aren't fully healthy.
What do you suppose the issue with RJ’s defense this year is ? It’s seems he’s taken multiple steps back.
He plays defense like he's got 5 fouls and averages 40 points-lol. To be fair, he may be a player who makes slow but steady improvement throughout his career, not huge leaps.
I audibly LOL's Tim, but the funnier thing is that you're not wrong.
Here's my issue with your second point: He was MUCH better in his second year, worse last year, and even worse this year. At this rate, maybe he can be Enes Kanter by year-eight.
Boom!
It's not only his defense....he gives you basically nothing on the boards as well. While his lack of athleticism will limit his ceiling as a defender, I think the overarching issue is his lack of tenacity and fight. It's as if he has turned into last year Julius! No loose balls, no tough rebounds, no second effort, no effort to fight through screens...and now we can't even hide him on the defensive side of the ball. While there are improvements in his offensive game, his atrocious defense and lack of hustle plays is extremely disappointing, to say the least.
Not indulging in hurtful things like when I was a boy, I turned this game off early and watched Winnie the Pooh with my kids. I appreciate your Julius love, because it runs counter to my burgeoning dislike of his game. While the counting stats are elite-ish, it feels like Diet Coke. So many heat checks, missed passes, and slow processes. Even when the outcome is good, I don't feel great about it, the opposite of how I feel with Brunson. IMO we've seen the peak of this roster, and it is time to change some pieces.
Good decision by you Matsuko. Really enjoyed that ride in Disney too.
Re: Julius, I'm trying hard to be fair because I was so hard on him last year and he's more or less doing all the things I said "if you show me this, all is forgiven." Brunson is also my cup of tea.
Knicks fans are missing the bigger context. Yes, the Knicks peaked at 25-19 and top 10 offense, defense and net ratings, but they did so playing the 3rd easiest schedule in the entire league. Now that they are facing the 3rd hardest schedule for the remainder of the season, they don’t have a prayer of matching their performance up to this point.
The Knicks have a less talented roster now than they did two years ago. With the loss of vets like Burks and Taj and the decline of Rose they’ve gone from having one of the best benches in the league to one of the worst. They traded away a late lottery pick with several good players still available (who have already become core bench players on the teams that selected them). The guards and wings don’t have the length and athleticism to compete with modern NBA rosters. Obi and iHart are poor fits for the Knicks scheme. The Knicks are trying to win with only 2/3 of a functional roster, wearing out their All-Stars in the process. Add up all the roster deficits and the Knicks ceiling is probably 5+ games below .500; with Mitch’s injury they could be 5 game below .500 by the All-Star break.
I agree with your analysis, but even if Thibs implemented it all it would only win them a handful of games at the margin. For the Knicks to step up in class they need a roster overhaul. There’s no sense Knicks fans beating their collective heads against the wall in frustration when the roster is nowhere close to being competitive.
I don't disagree that ultimately this is a roster built to go around .500 at best. I also agree that the 25-19 record certainly led to a decent amount of the consternation we're hearing. That said, I also think there are some fair things to gripe about.
You really need to work on your Swahili. You seem like a guy with a ton of time on your hands. What's your excuse?
I don't have a good one. Sad, really.
"If you don't know where you're going, any road will take you there."
so jon, what do you think of this....Obi comes back and we lose our mo jo. is there a correlation? now mitch is out and things get worse. i wonder if sims playing alongside hartenstein worked better than obi for defense and rebounding? obi and ihart seem to be limited players and with mitch out this gets really challenging.
IDK if I can go that far, but I don't think you're wrong outright, and certainly points for creativity!
After seeing Fournier watch a clear path drive to the hoop with his feet firmly planted outside the paint I had to turn it off.
can't blame you
That was it for me too. Play anyone but Fournier! (And Hart)
What I don’t get is the seeming lack of coaching or accountability for RJs poor defense. He’s simply not showing real improvement in this aspect of his game. He’ s overpaid!
It's VERY troubling to me
Things that make me go hmmm?
Obi getting three minutes in second half after lighting it up in first.
IQ getting five shots against Atlanta when they were all makes.
Tom is not a bad coach. Tom is a good coach. Tom is not the only coach that could lead this team to a .500 or so record. Tom is the only coach for which there are 0 avenues to 20 plus mins a night for Obi Toppin with this roster.
My guess - and its just a guess - is that Thibs would point to their overall offensive rating and tell you that scoring isn't the issue, and then say something about what's best for the team being the important thing. And as much as everyone wants to murder him for his inflexibility, he wouldn't be totally wrong with those sentiments.
We're a good offensive team, but we try too often for the homerun pass when doubled as opposed to going for the hockey assist.. So we made more turnovers last night than normal.
And he'd be full of it b/c its not a new devleopement. He's made it clear that he feels it is an unplayable lineup and he won't go to it outside of desperation. Letting Obi be the first big off the bench for the next 14 games would give you a little sample to look at it and all you would be losing is 6 Hartinstein mins a night. KILLING IS JUSTIFIED.
perhaps. I agree that Hart has done little to warrant continued faith. I hope Tom is more flexible.
Doesn't look good IMO. I think Hart is better then Noel was last year and that was when Randle wasn't giving you good offense. Maybe if another center goes down. I think Thibs sees more potential viablity in Hart playing with Sims then he does in Randle/Toppin.