I think you called it a while ago. When Randle signed that extension, Thibs wagon was hitched to him. There were flaws in the “we here” season, a stat I remember was opposing teams shot a league worst percentage of 3’s that season against us and other teams said we were lucky, I think everyone bought in to the team Def and agreed you make your own luck, but Randles MIP play covered a lot of flaws. The cracks are coming to the surface. Randle is camping under the basket to get rebounds and stat pad in my opinion. I can’t imagine everyone else on the team is happy to fly around the court when you have 2 guys sitting in the paint (not blaming Mitchell, that’s his job in this system) and as you stated, in this system, If you aren’t going 110% on defense and are carrying a liability on Def, you better get fucking lucky. I’m tired of making roll players look like Steph curry. No disrespect to those players of course. If Thibs doesn’t bench Randle, I don’t see a way out.
I mean…… they were tied in the last minute of a game against arguably the best team in the league the last game. The last home game before that, against one of the best teams in Memphis, ditto (except in that game they were actually winning late). I admit to missing today’s clunker but at 10-13, following what has been a fairly tough stretch of games, I just can’t get nuts about this team when my expectations were so limited from the start. Yeah, the coach’s defensive schemes in allowing so many open threes can lead to some salty language in front of the TV. But that’s also in part due to having three substandard to bad defensive players on the floor in your starting lineup (who are the same three lead players on the offensive side). Thibs is what he is. Our roster is what it is.
My biggest fear is that the moron we have for an owner forces a bad trade. “Internal pressure”? Give me a break. No legitimate basketball executive iis ever working for this fool. I agree with the commenter below-until he sells the team, it will always be the same old, same old. To all all those attorneys who can’t attend games because of your slip and fall cases against MSG: consider yourself fortunate.
Shout out though to you Jonathan for your unmatched passion in covering this team. A Saturday night bonus newsletter (following what I suspect was an extended post game podcast)! I’m not sure how you do it (some measure of insanity has to be involved, although in a good way of course) but really appreciate all that you do.
So it’s always the same story: new coach/new front office = same result! There’s only one thing that hasn’t changed: The idea that you can take a short cut to glory in the NBA! The system is just not setup that way unless you get lucky and one of the high end FA’s decides to form a big 2 or 3, but it’s rare. For some reason, they never seem to pick MSG. The problem is that they never stick to a plan long enough. These guys came in with a long term plan to clean house and go young and build from scratch. But, they made the playoffs in the lockdown year, they give Randle a long term extension based on a few months of illusion rather than 6 years of facts, and they are stuck with him. They sign Kemba and Fournier to 2-3 yr deals and get stuck with them or need to waste assets to get rid of them. they resign Burks and Noel to 2 yr deals when they probably could have overpaid them on 1yr deals and got rid of them without attaching assets. They trade their no.1 pick for a pile of future picks and then don’t use them. The give RJ an extension and he promptly takes a dump! Do they have a plan? Look at the successful people in this business: OKC, he makes a plan and sticks to it. If some adjustments need to be made along the way, they do it, but they stick to a plan. Danny Ainge: No emotion: He makes a plan and sticks to it, he trades when he sees value regardless of who’s involved. He has a plan, he can adjust along the way, but he has a plan and he sticks to it. Riley: he has a system and a plan, he adjusts his playing style to the players, he doesn’t force players to adjust to his style, you play with the hand that you’re dealt, not with the one that you wished for! Please make a decision: Do you want to win or do you want to go young and develop? At the moment, it doesn’t seem that they have what it takes to win enough make it worth what you’re going to sacrifice to get there. Please make up your minds! Have an plan and stick to it!
Thanks for this bonus newsletter Jon. It was really needed after today. Where do they go from here? It’s really not enough, or fair to just fire the coach. Rose and his minions put the team together. Honestly, I would first like to see Rose go because he has been a study in mediocrity. His Knicks never felt like they were building toward a championship. It’s always felt like his goal was to make it into the play-in (or play-offs) and basically be satisfied. And how about Rose’s baloney that he was trading picks and trading players for picks so that the Knick can go get a star. So what happens? A star is available. The star wants to come to NY. Did Rose personally take the reigns to make it happen? No, he has the lead negotiator be a guy who isn’t even a full-time employee. And oh by the way, has never proven to be a successful NBA front office executive.
Yep, the time had come to go get that star, and Rose spit the bit. How you even have Rosas as a consultant has not yet been justified, let alone making him the lead negotiator in a critical negotiation.
And it’s not even worth discussing Dolan who’s ascension to the owner of the Knicks coincided with the end of a great decade of basketball and now is 20 years+ into performing as arguably the worst franchise in sports. Or close to it.
I hope the financial issues that Dolan has in building the Sphere mean that he finally has to sell the club. I don’t think there is anything else that turns around this franchise.
Dec 4, 2022·edited Dec 4, 2022Liked by Jonathan Macri
By now you’ve probably listened to Fred Katz and Sam Vecenie discussing what’s wrong with the Knicks on Sam’s podcast this week, and they come down in the same place: despite Randle’s and Barrett’s shortcomings, despite Thib’s outdated defensive scheme, the ultimate responsibility for this roster of misfit toys, and an approach to roster-building that’s the functional equivalent of the emperor’s new clothes, belongs to Leon Rose. But there’s one thing that gives me pause about wanting Rose gone before he can do more damage: Senior Advisor Gersson Rosas. Can somebody tell me WTF Rosas is doing in the front office and why he’s here? Did Dolan bring him in because he’s unsure Rose knows what he’s doing? Is Rosas the hand picked successor in waiting, biding his time until Leon is fired? Is there any reason to think he’d be any less of a disaster than Rose & Company? As Daffy Duck once said to Elmer Fudd: “Do you want to shoot me now or wait til you get home?”
Dec 4, 2022·edited Dec 4, 2022Liked by Jonathan Macri
A smart "owner" would call the Commish and ask for help: Help me get the best young minds to run my franchise. Dolan would give them the keys to the franchise, money from his Cablevision hoard of gold, and disappear. Or, he'd sell to a smart billionaire. Maybe. a European led consortium [the NBA's allowing new forms of ownership] that would turn the Garden and NYC into [what it should be] the international hub of basketball. Dolan could get his bag and still have courtside seats. But, I am afraid Dolan likes the glory and gravitas of owning the Knicks [and Rangers]. It makes him, a little rich guy playing with Daddy's money, one of the most important entertainment figures in the City, in the World. So, the pain will likely, though I hope not, continue. A CAA Knicksy thing will happen; trading the team---all its assets for Towns or Lavine and signing Melo. Maybe, they bring in Coach Cal or bring Woody back from IU. Who knows? Like the broadcaster in Paddy Chayefsky's film, "Network" --- we can open our windows and scream: [MSG] It's a madhouse, a madhouse! You are right. It could get worse. Ugh...
If you want defense and win games with defense you don’t give up on defensive players. If you want offense you have players who play offense and bring them in. Players who play defense are gold in my opinion. Players who are offensive machines can have off games except for a few that are superstars. Fans who complained about defensive players who couldn’t score and wanted offense at all cost, shouldn’t complain now. Thibs can coach both ways. However to win you can’t count on out scoring other teams every night. So the Knicks will be up and down all season. So let’s be real and understand that none of this is on Thibs. Nor is it on the front office. Until a team has a Giannis, Durant, Donicic etc, they are going to middling. To get those players you need luck. Unfortunately the Knicks are anything but lucky.
I feel like it's more personnel than defensive scheme. Look at all the length the Bucks have. Also the Knicks probably don't have to rotate as much if they aren't getting beaten by so often one on one. Though I know it's been said that it is near impossible to stay with your man one on one in the NBA. How are these other (good) teams guarding the 3 point ball so much better? Is it as simple as getting a hand up in the offensive players face which the Knicks are not consistent at. What's more perplexing is the Knicks have players that are solid on defense or capable of being better than what they doing at this moment.
I have been a Knicks fan since the 1950s. With several brief exceptions over the decades I have seen some pretty poor basketball. Last night I turned the game off in the third quarter. I can’t watch another minute of Julis Randle hogging the ball in the corner, late to pass out of the double team, play hero ball. I can’t watch another game where Obi plays only 15 minutes. Even when they win they just don’t look good. Isolation basketball. Drive and kick. Hero ball from Julius and RJ. Missed defensive assignments. Shoddy rebounding. Joyless. Frustrating. I’m going on strike. I am not watching tonight. Sure I’ll check the score. Habit requires that. They have to win me back. Wish me luck!
Thank you for the weekend newsletter, Jonathan! Such a die hard fan - it’s what makes you such a superb journalist. Your work is soooo appreciated.
I think the difference between a front office led by a deal-maker vs a skilled talent evaluator is revealing itself. As much as we, quite justifiably, despise Danny Ainge, his track record for evaluating talent is… slightly better than ours. We need to draft better, hire a shooting coach, and adopt a defensive system that actually, you know, defends the 3pt line as a priority. Leon paid to get the best capologist; he needs to pay for the best talent evaluator and shooting coach. We can’t keep burning high draft picks. I love Obi, and on another team I really think he is an excellent player, but we only give him 15 minutes a night. It’s a wasted pick not because he was drafted too high - he wasn’t - but because we don’t / can’t / won’t use him. Instead of investing in him, we re-signed Ju to a long term deal. They’re just wasting that talent. Meanwhile Devin Vassell would be the best shooter on our team, TyHal is a borderline all star… Leon needs to switch out the talent evaluation team and just do better. Make our drafts more analytics-based. I love IQ but we should’ve drafted Des Bane. Howcome Memphis keep hittting on players like him?
I don’t mind passing on Mitchell. I don’t fault the FO for that. I think it was the right call but for the wrong reason; I fault them for the rationale. You draft the first star, THEN trade for the next one. You just can’t trade for two stars because the price for a true star will be sky high. Cleveland drafted Garland, then Mobley, then knew the value of Allen & acquired him in a trade and watched him blossom. So when Mitchell came available, they had the kind of team that made sense to go all in for. Hoarding enough picks to acquire two stars…. I guess it’s theoretically possible, but as they say, it’s not the way to bet. Better to hoard enough picks to move up in a draft because your talent evaluation team knows that Ben Mathurin as a rookie would be one of the best players on our team full of vets.
Players have to hit their shots; GMs have to hit their draft picks. I’d be 100% happy if we started 3 very promising rookies plus Grimes on next year’s team, even if we lost a lot (and break the bank to get Bol Bol when he comes available lol).
Bottom line: we have to draft better. I’m not sure our FO has figured that out.
To be fair though, for all the hand wringing, the front office brought Thibs in to win games and he is only one game under .500 as the coach of the team over three seasons and we are 3 games out of the 4 seed this year. I expect this to drag on a little longer before the bottom falls out, which it will.
Would like to see Johnnie Bryant as interim coach for the rest of the year. They should sit Rose on the bench and play an 8/9 man rotation ensuring IQ, Obi, and Cam get 25 - 30 minutes off the bench. Let's find out what we have or don't have with the young players. Do what it takes to trade Randle at the deadline or in the offseason.
I wasn't hopeful when Dolan chose Leon Rose to run the Knicks. A CEO's talent is getting people to define their goals and work together. Haven't seen much evidence of that.
Thanks for your concern! 🤗 the strike lasted one game. I did watch the Hawks game. I love watching this new backcourt. Curious to see how he replaces Obi. Let’s see what the weekend brings!
A lot of these guy have been with Tom for 3 years. 3 years of a guy that sells himself as a person that is never happy. 3 years of a guy that screams all the time. 3 years of a guy that clearly seems to pit players against one another to get the most out them them. 3 years of whipping boys who are used to prove the point and Clydesdales that get the loins share of the work and responsibility. Scheme aside it’s no surprise he’s worn thin. He’s not old school unless that a euphemism for asshole
I think you called it a while ago. When Randle signed that extension, Thibs wagon was hitched to him. There were flaws in the “we here” season, a stat I remember was opposing teams shot a league worst percentage of 3’s that season against us and other teams said we were lucky, I think everyone bought in to the team Def and agreed you make your own luck, but Randles MIP play covered a lot of flaws. The cracks are coming to the surface. Randle is camping under the basket to get rebounds and stat pad in my opinion. I can’t imagine everyone else on the team is happy to fly around the court when you have 2 guys sitting in the paint (not blaming Mitchell, that’s his job in this system) and as you stated, in this system, If you aren’t going 110% on defense and are carrying a liability on Def, you better get fucking lucky. I’m tired of making roll players look like Steph curry. No disrespect to those players of course. If Thibs doesn’t bench Randle, I don’t see a way out.
I mean…… they were tied in the last minute of a game against arguably the best team in the league the last game. The last home game before that, against one of the best teams in Memphis, ditto (except in that game they were actually winning late). I admit to missing today’s clunker but at 10-13, following what has been a fairly tough stretch of games, I just can’t get nuts about this team when my expectations were so limited from the start. Yeah, the coach’s defensive schemes in allowing so many open threes can lead to some salty language in front of the TV. But that’s also in part due to having three substandard to bad defensive players on the floor in your starting lineup (who are the same three lead players on the offensive side). Thibs is what he is. Our roster is what it is.
My biggest fear is that the moron we have for an owner forces a bad trade. “Internal pressure”? Give me a break. No legitimate basketball executive iis ever working for this fool. I agree with the commenter below-until he sells the team, it will always be the same old, same old. To all all those attorneys who can’t attend games because of your slip and fall cases against MSG: consider yourself fortunate.
Shout out though to you Jonathan for your unmatched passion in covering this team. A Saturday night bonus newsletter (following what I suspect was an extended post game podcast)! I’m not sure how you do it (some measure of insanity has to be involved, although in a good way of course) but really appreciate all that you do.
Let’s get ‘em tomorrow.
So it’s always the same story: new coach/new front office = same result! There’s only one thing that hasn’t changed: The idea that you can take a short cut to glory in the NBA! The system is just not setup that way unless you get lucky and one of the high end FA’s decides to form a big 2 or 3, but it’s rare. For some reason, they never seem to pick MSG. The problem is that they never stick to a plan long enough. These guys came in with a long term plan to clean house and go young and build from scratch. But, they made the playoffs in the lockdown year, they give Randle a long term extension based on a few months of illusion rather than 6 years of facts, and they are stuck with him. They sign Kemba and Fournier to 2-3 yr deals and get stuck with them or need to waste assets to get rid of them. they resign Burks and Noel to 2 yr deals when they probably could have overpaid them on 1yr deals and got rid of them without attaching assets. They trade their no.1 pick for a pile of future picks and then don’t use them. The give RJ an extension and he promptly takes a dump! Do they have a plan? Look at the successful people in this business: OKC, he makes a plan and sticks to it. If some adjustments need to be made along the way, they do it, but they stick to a plan. Danny Ainge: No emotion: He makes a plan and sticks to it, he trades when he sees value regardless of who’s involved. He has a plan, he can adjust along the way, but he has a plan and he sticks to it. Riley: he has a system and a plan, he adjusts his playing style to the players, he doesn’t force players to adjust to his style, you play with the hand that you’re dealt, not with the one that you wished for! Please make a decision: Do you want to win or do you want to go young and develop? At the moment, it doesn’t seem that they have what it takes to win enough make it worth what you’re going to sacrifice to get there. Please make up your minds! Have an plan and stick to it!
Thanks for this bonus newsletter Jon. It was really needed after today. Where do they go from here? It’s really not enough, or fair to just fire the coach. Rose and his minions put the team together. Honestly, I would first like to see Rose go because he has been a study in mediocrity. His Knicks never felt like they were building toward a championship. It’s always felt like his goal was to make it into the play-in (or play-offs) and basically be satisfied. And how about Rose’s baloney that he was trading picks and trading players for picks so that the Knick can go get a star. So what happens? A star is available. The star wants to come to NY. Did Rose personally take the reigns to make it happen? No, he has the lead negotiator be a guy who isn’t even a full-time employee. And oh by the way, has never proven to be a successful NBA front office executive.
Yep, the time had come to go get that star, and Rose spit the bit. How you even have Rosas as a consultant has not yet been justified, let alone making him the lead negotiator in a critical negotiation.
And it’s not even worth discussing Dolan who’s ascension to the owner of the Knicks coincided with the end of a great decade of basketball and now is 20 years+ into performing as arguably the worst franchise in sports. Or close to it.
I hope the financial issues that Dolan has in building the Sphere mean that he finally has to sell the club. I don’t think there is anything else that turns around this franchise.
By now you’ve probably listened to Fred Katz and Sam Vecenie discussing what’s wrong with the Knicks on Sam’s podcast this week, and they come down in the same place: despite Randle’s and Barrett’s shortcomings, despite Thib’s outdated defensive scheme, the ultimate responsibility for this roster of misfit toys, and an approach to roster-building that’s the functional equivalent of the emperor’s new clothes, belongs to Leon Rose. But there’s one thing that gives me pause about wanting Rose gone before he can do more damage: Senior Advisor Gersson Rosas. Can somebody tell me WTF Rosas is doing in the front office and why he’s here? Did Dolan bring him in because he’s unsure Rose knows what he’s doing? Is Rosas the hand picked successor in waiting, biding his time until Leon is fired? Is there any reason to think he’d be any less of a disaster than Rose & Company? As Daffy Duck once said to Elmer Fudd: “Do you want to shoot me now or wait til you get home?”
A smart "owner" would call the Commish and ask for help: Help me get the best young minds to run my franchise. Dolan would give them the keys to the franchise, money from his Cablevision hoard of gold, and disappear. Or, he'd sell to a smart billionaire. Maybe. a European led consortium [the NBA's allowing new forms of ownership] that would turn the Garden and NYC into [what it should be] the international hub of basketball. Dolan could get his bag and still have courtside seats. But, I am afraid Dolan likes the glory and gravitas of owning the Knicks [and Rangers]. It makes him, a little rich guy playing with Daddy's money, one of the most important entertainment figures in the City, in the World. So, the pain will likely, though I hope not, continue. A CAA Knicksy thing will happen; trading the team---all its assets for Towns or Lavine and signing Melo. Maybe, they bring in Coach Cal or bring Woody back from IU. Who knows? Like the broadcaster in Paddy Chayefsky's film, "Network" --- we can open our windows and scream: [MSG] It's a madhouse, a madhouse! You are right. It could get worse. Ugh...
If you want defense and win games with defense you don’t give up on defensive players. If you want offense you have players who play offense and bring them in. Players who play defense are gold in my opinion. Players who are offensive machines can have off games except for a few that are superstars. Fans who complained about defensive players who couldn’t score and wanted offense at all cost, shouldn’t complain now. Thibs can coach both ways. However to win you can’t count on out scoring other teams every night. So the Knicks will be up and down all season. So let’s be real and understand that none of this is on Thibs. Nor is it on the front office. Until a team has a Giannis, Durant, Donicic etc, they are going to middling. To get those players you need luck. Unfortunately the Knicks are anything but lucky.
Mannnnnnn, that intro was 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥 and right on the money, as well!!!!!
I feel like it's more personnel than defensive scheme. Look at all the length the Bucks have. Also the Knicks probably don't have to rotate as much if they aren't getting beaten by so often one on one. Though I know it's been said that it is near impossible to stay with your man one on one in the NBA. How are these other (good) teams guarding the 3 point ball so much better? Is it as simple as getting a hand up in the offensive players face which the Knicks are not consistent at. What's more perplexing is the Knicks have players that are solid on defense or capable of being better than what they doing at this moment.
I have been a Knicks fan since the 1950s. With several brief exceptions over the decades I have seen some pretty poor basketball. Last night I turned the game off in the third quarter. I can’t watch another minute of Julis Randle hogging the ball in the corner, late to pass out of the double team, play hero ball. I can’t watch another game where Obi plays only 15 minutes. Even when they win they just don’t look good. Isolation basketball. Drive and kick. Hero ball from Julius and RJ. Missed defensive assignments. Shoddy rebounding. Joyless. Frustrating. I’m going on strike. I am not watching tonight. Sure I’ll check the score. Habit requires that. They have to win me back. Wish me luck!
Thank you for the weekend newsletter, Jonathan! Such a die hard fan - it’s what makes you such a superb journalist. Your work is soooo appreciated.
I think the difference between a front office led by a deal-maker vs a skilled talent evaluator is revealing itself. As much as we, quite justifiably, despise Danny Ainge, his track record for evaluating talent is… slightly better than ours. We need to draft better, hire a shooting coach, and adopt a defensive system that actually, you know, defends the 3pt line as a priority. Leon paid to get the best capologist; he needs to pay for the best talent evaluator and shooting coach. We can’t keep burning high draft picks. I love Obi, and on another team I really think he is an excellent player, but we only give him 15 minutes a night. It’s a wasted pick not because he was drafted too high - he wasn’t - but because we don’t / can’t / won’t use him. Instead of investing in him, we re-signed Ju to a long term deal. They’re just wasting that talent. Meanwhile Devin Vassell would be the best shooter on our team, TyHal is a borderline all star… Leon needs to switch out the talent evaluation team and just do better. Make our drafts more analytics-based. I love IQ but we should’ve drafted Des Bane. Howcome Memphis keep hittting on players like him?
I don’t mind passing on Mitchell. I don’t fault the FO for that. I think it was the right call but for the wrong reason; I fault them for the rationale. You draft the first star, THEN trade for the next one. You just can’t trade for two stars because the price for a true star will be sky high. Cleveland drafted Garland, then Mobley, then knew the value of Allen & acquired him in a trade and watched him blossom. So when Mitchell came available, they had the kind of team that made sense to go all in for. Hoarding enough picks to acquire two stars…. I guess it’s theoretically possible, but as they say, it’s not the way to bet. Better to hoard enough picks to move up in a draft because your talent evaluation team knows that Ben Mathurin as a rookie would be one of the best players on our team full of vets.
Players have to hit their shots; GMs have to hit their draft picks. I’d be 100% happy if we started 3 very promising rookies plus Grimes on next year’s team, even if we lost a lot (and break the bank to get Bol Bol when he comes available lol).
Bottom line: we have to draft better. I’m not sure our FO has figured that out.
Losing all hope fast.
I knew last year.
To be fair though, for all the hand wringing, the front office brought Thibs in to win games and he is only one game under .500 as the coach of the team over three seasons and we are 3 games out of the 4 seed this year. I expect this to drag on a little longer before the bottom falls out, which it will.
Would like to see Johnnie Bryant as interim coach for the rest of the year. They should sit Rose on the bench and play an 8/9 man rotation ensuring IQ, Obi, and Cam get 25 - 30 minutes off the bench. Let's find out what we have or don't have with the young players. Do what it takes to trade Randle at the deadline or in the offseason.
I wasn't hopeful when Dolan chose Leon Rose to run the Knicks. A CEO's talent is getting people to define their goals and work together. Haven't seen much evidence of that.
Thanks for your concern! 🤗 the strike lasted one game. I did watch the Hawks game. I love watching this new backcourt. Curious to see how he replaces Obi. Let’s see what the weekend brings!
A lot of these guy have been with Tom for 3 years. 3 years of a guy that sells himself as a person that is never happy. 3 years of a guy that screams all the time. 3 years of a guy that clearly seems to pit players against one another to get the most out them them. 3 years of whipping boys who are used to prove the point and Clydesdales that get the loins share of the work and responsibility. Scheme aside it’s no surprise he’s worn thin. He’s not old school unless that a euphemism for asshole