Assume for a second that Obi, Grimes rose and Cam all go for Mitchell and we get no other Jazz players back. What exceptions will we have to fill the second team spots and who is out there to fill them. You have previously mentioned Melo. Any other thoughts?
Great article Macri. I really like that three team trade. I think it’ll obviously affect the lakers pursuit of Kyrie, unless by some miracle he’s bought out by the nets at some point. Then they can double dip. What an incredible situation that would be. My belief is that we will be picking in the middle to late first round into perpetuity. So if we can amass a few more middling picks by flipping assets we can continue to fill our war chest of young players. Trade all the picks keep the young players, I’m firmly in that camp
You've walked me off the ledge of fearing another sell everything in the cupboards for one player with this newsletter and your reference to the original Friday post. I now land squarely in Camp #2 (Get Mitchell, even if we have to overpay a little, but don’t give up the farm). I am a believer that draft picks are just assets and should be thought of as such. We can't think of #1 picks as all guys that will be stars...that is rarely the case. Fueling that fire is even our kids we're excited about will not all be stars (Obi, Grimes, IQ, Mitch). I like Obi a lot but don't think he's going to be perennial All Star, so I'd have my lightest grip on him. Grimes stock is as high as it has ever been...so may be the best time to move him. Here's my caveat...I think you are over weighting how other star FAs would view that rebuilt team. For example, would KD really be that stoked about joining a core of RJ, Brunson & Spida? Meh...I don't think so. Closer, but not desirable yet. We'd really rely on the FO to continue to add pieces through strong 2nd round choices + development and adding pieces along the way to ramp.
The Rose administration in 2+ seasons in NY have not really accomplished very much. Their best player, RJ, was on the roster when they got to NY. Their second best player — Randle was already on the team. They have drafted a couple of nice players in Quick, Grimes and maybe Obi. None appear to be starters on a playoff team. Their biggest move was recruiting Brunson to the team but family connections made this almost seem like a slam dunk.
What they have done well, is accumulate picks and hold on to their own picks. This is no small feat considering the franchise’s history.
And they have accumulated these picks to acquire a star. A star is on the market. When the next might become available, considering changes in the way the best players move, it could be a long time.
But, a homegrown star. Young and still early in a long term contract, AND from the area, IS available. If they miss on Mitchell, this administration might not get another chance.
If the Knicks have to give up four unprotected picks plus two with protection, they need to do it. I don’t think Utah cares all that much but if they have to throw in two of Quick, Grimes, and Obi, they need to do it.
The risk the Knicks are taking is another team swoops in and steals Mitchell right in front of their eyes. I don’t think the Rose administration survives that. Dolan would be, and quite rightly, furious.
Ainge of course knows all of this which is not helping the Knicks’ negotiating stance.
If you can hang on to RJ, Brunson, one of the three above, plus Mitchell, Hart, Rose or Fournier, Randle, Hart, Sims + an exception — that’s a playoff team right there. And playoff teams with stars attract other stars.
Rose has no choice but to get this deal done. And yes, the Knicks will need to give up and “unprecedented” amount of assets. But do it now, Riley is working hard to get the assets to get it done. Losing Mitchell would be horrible. Losing him to Riley would be the end of the Rose administration and quite rightly.
Perk makes a good point, that Utah, despite surrounding Mitchell with a lot of high-end talent including the 3x DPOY and 4x All NBA’er in Gobert, along with a still very serviceable Mike Conley, and a bunch of other very good role-players who have excelled in other teams, including Bojan, Whiteside, former sixth man OTY Clarkson, they couldn’t get it done in the playoffs.
I’d go a step further and say that, even if the Jazz liked the value they got for Gobert, that doesn’t necessarily imply that they couldn’t build an even better contender around what’s left (including Mitchell) and that they need to blow it up, but if they trade Mitchell for picks, then they are expressing a belief that a contending team cannot be built around Mitchell and his $30m cap hit. What do the Knicks know about Mitchell that the Jazz don’t, or is it just that Mitchell wants out of SLC?
I believe Jazz will have to accept Fournier as part of a package for Mitchell to approach matching salary cap trade values. Perhaps Jazz will accept Reddish in place of Grimes. If Knicks can improve their playoff status in future years, their "protected" picks become irrelevant. As training camp becomes closer, Jazz may lower their price inasmuch as Mitchell wants and expects a trade and Jazz will not want an "unhappy camper" going into next season.
Sims and Robinson need to develop a sky-hook and/or jump hook. Sims shoots foul shots at 50%. He needs to get to 75%. That should give him the confidence to shoot jumpers from 8-10 feet from the basket. He clearly has an upside worth developing.
I am firmly in camp 3. I am not as much worried about the assets given in the Mitchell trade. I am worried about the NEXT trade. As you so astutely mentioned it was more than the Melo trade, it was the subsequent moves that happened. If the Knicks trade out all their future picks without protections the implications of that move are more than just the value of the players getting chosen. It severely limits the teams flexibility if things dont go as planned. Play out this unfortunately not unlikely scenario. Knicks trade for Mitchell giving up swaps and their own draft capital. The 2023 season happens and because we have not solved the Julius Randle problem (JB, DM, RJ and Randle all need usage) the Knicks are still not in the top 6 teams in the conference. Now Leon Rose is really feeling the pressure, if the Knicks fall out of the playoffs they don't have a lottery pick to fall back to give an increase in talent. So the desperation increases. GM's typically double down. Leon Rose becomes a guy who is desperate and his job is on the line.... ]
When GM's are in this position they trade for Andrea Bargnani. They do whatever they can to make the playoffs and selfishly keep their job irrespective of the harm it does to the franchises future. We have all watched this move time and time again... we know how it ends. There is a reason that Utah is trading DM.... I would love for someone to take a deep dive in how why Utah's record didn't get significantly worse when he was injured for 30+ games. People overate offensive talent.
All that being said If they can get DM for a reasonable haul I am for it. The bigger the price for the trade the more desperate we will be in future trades.
Thanks. I will be ecstatic if Sims adds a set jumps shot [on the bounce deferred for now] to his bag of tricks this season. If he fakes movement toward the rim, he should be wide open.
If getting Mitchell is the key element to the Knicks organization stepping up towards contention, do it.
Otherwise, stick to their plan.
Star chasing has been a disaster.
If there's a larger vision, I will take 40+ wins seasons.
This won't be the first or last time in the history of sports [or the world] that the young must lead the way!
Love this fake trade scenario with the Lakers and jazz. If we can do a Spida trade without trading any of IQ, Grimes and Obi I'm all in.
Assume for a second that Obi, Grimes rose and Cam all go for Mitchell and we get no other Jazz players back. What exceptions will we have to fill the second team spots and who is out there to fill them. You have previously mentioned Melo. Any other thoughts?
Great article Macri. I really like that three team trade. I think it’ll obviously affect the lakers pursuit of Kyrie, unless by some miracle he’s bought out by the nets at some point. Then they can double dip. What an incredible situation that would be. My belief is that we will be picking in the middle to late first round into perpetuity. So if we can amass a few more middling picks by flipping assets we can continue to fill our war chest of young players. Trade all the picks keep the young players, I’m firmly in that camp
You've walked me off the ledge of fearing another sell everything in the cupboards for one player with this newsletter and your reference to the original Friday post. I now land squarely in Camp #2 (Get Mitchell, even if we have to overpay a little, but don’t give up the farm). I am a believer that draft picks are just assets and should be thought of as such. We can't think of #1 picks as all guys that will be stars...that is rarely the case. Fueling that fire is even our kids we're excited about will not all be stars (Obi, Grimes, IQ, Mitch). I like Obi a lot but don't think he's going to be perennial All Star, so I'd have my lightest grip on him. Grimes stock is as high as it has ever been...so may be the best time to move him. Here's my caveat...I think you are over weighting how other star FAs would view that rebuilt team. For example, would KD really be that stoked about joining a core of RJ, Brunson & Spida? Meh...I don't think so. Closer, but not desirable yet. We'd really rely on the FO to continue to add pieces through strong 2nd round choices + development and adding pieces along the way to ramp.
The Rose administration in 2+ seasons in NY have not really accomplished very much. Their best player, RJ, was on the roster when they got to NY. Their second best player — Randle was already on the team. They have drafted a couple of nice players in Quick, Grimes and maybe Obi. None appear to be starters on a playoff team. Their biggest move was recruiting Brunson to the team but family connections made this almost seem like a slam dunk.
What they have done well, is accumulate picks and hold on to their own picks. This is no small feat considering the franchise’s history.
And they have accumulated these picks to acquire a star. A star is on the market. When the next might become available, considering changes in the way the best players move, it could be a long time.
But, a homegrown star. Young and still early in a long term contract, AND from the area, IS available. If they miss on Mitchell, this administration might not get another chance.
If the Knicks have to give up four unprotected picks plus two with protection, they need to do it. I don’t think Utah cares all that much but if they have to throw in two of Quick, Grimes, and Obi, they need to do it.
The risk the Knicks are taking is another team swoops in and steals Mitchell right in front of their eyes. I don’t think the Rose administration survives that. Dolan would be, and quite rightly, furious.
Ainge of course knows all of this which is not helping the Knicks’ negotiating stance.
If you can hang on to RJ, Brunson, one of the three above, plus Mitchell, Hart, Rose or Fournier, Randle, Hart, Sims + an exception — that’s a playoff team right there. And playoff teams with stars attract other stars.
Rose has no choice but to get this deal done. And yes, the Knicks will need to give up and “unprecedented” amount of assets. But do it now, Riley is working hard to get the assets to get it done. Losing Mitchell would be horrible. Losing him to Riley would be the end of the Rose administration and quite rightly.
Perk makes a good point, that Utah, despite surrounding Mitchell with a lot of high-end talent including the 3x DPOY and 4x All NBA’er in Gobert, along with a still very serviceable Mike Conley, and a bunch of other very good role-players who have excelled in other teams, including Bojan, Whiteside, former sixth man OTY Clarkson, they couldn’t get it done in the playoffs.
https://www.espn.com/video/clip/_/id/34263160
I’d go a step further and say that, even if the Jazz liked the value they got for Gobert, that doesn’t necessarily imply that they couldn’t build an even better contender around what’s left (including Mitchell) and that they need to blow it up, but if they trade Mitchell for picks, then they are expressing a belief that a contending team cannot be built around Mitchell and his $30m cap hit. What do the Knicks know about Mitchell that the Jazz don’t, or is it just that Mitchell wants out of SLC?
Count me in camp 3 (or even 4).
I believe Jazz will have to accept Fournier as part of a package for Mitchell to approach matching salary cap trade values. Perhaps Jazz will accept Reddish in place of Grimes. If Knicks can improve their playoff status in future years, their "protected" picks become irrelevant. As training camp becomes closer, Jazz may lower their price inasmuch as Mitchell wants and expects a trade and Jazz will not want an "unhappy camper" going into next season.
Sims and Robinson need to develop a sky-hook and/or jump hook. Sims shoots foul shots at 50%. He needs to get to 75%. That should give him the confidence to shoot jumpers from 8-10 feet from the basket. He clearly has an upside worth developing.
I am firmly in camp 3. I am not as much worried about the assets given in the Mitchell trade. I am worried about the NEXT trade. As you so astutely mentioned it was more than the Melo trade, it was the subsequent moves that happened. If the Knicks trade out all their future picks without protections the implications of that move are more than just the value of the players getting chosen. It severely limits the teams flexibility if things dont go as planned. Play out this unfortunately not unlikely scenario. Knicks trade for Mitchell giving up swaps and their own draft capital. The 2023 season happens and because we have not solved the Julius Randle problem (JB, DM, RJ and Randle all need usage) the Knicks are still not in the top 6 teams in the conference. Now Leon Rose is really feeling the pressure, if the Knicks fall out of the playoffs they don't have a lottery pick to fall back to give an increase in talent. So the desperation increases. GM's typically double down. Leon Rose becomes a guy who is desperate and his job is on the line.... ]
When GM's are in this position they trade for Andrea Bargnani. They do whatever they can to make the playoffs and selfishly keep their job irrespective of the harm it does to the franchises future. We have all watched this move time and time again... we know how it ends. There is a reason that Utah is trading DM.... I would love for someone to take a deep dive in how why Utah's record didn't get significantly worse when he was injured for 30+ games. People overate offensive talent.
All that being said If they can get DM for a reasonable haul I am for it. The bigger the price for the trade the more desperate we will be in future trades.
Thanks. I will be ecstatic if Sims adds a set jumps shot [on the bounce deferred for now] to his bag of tricks this season. If he fakes movement toward the rim, he should be wide open.
If getting Mitchell is the key element to the Knicks organization stepping up towards contention, do it.
Otherwise, stick to their plan.
Star chasing has been a disaster.
If there's a larger vision, I will take 40+ wins seasons.
This won't be the first or last time in the history of sports [or the world] that the young must lead the way!