I remember when John Starks and Anthony Mason became major parts of the Knicks and they were the two stories I was most excited about in part because of the journey's they taken to get there and how no one even knew who they were having not been draft picks or free agents. Starks started out as a hustle and defense guy with hops and Mason was the same except with physicality instead of leaping ability. They played their way to bigger roles on a team that had established team defense and winning with effort on both ends, crashing the boards, bruising. All this is to say that I think our current team has some of the same concepts and while we now have amazing people like Macri to tell us all about something like summer league or g-league where back in the 90's there wasn't any of this scrutiny even available to the regular person, I think what Jon wrote here about Peterson understanding that summer league is about being 'star in the role' applies to all of these guys and includes rookies how are not blessed with star ability from the jump. Pretty much everyone on our team with the exception of Brunson and Randle are trying to be stars in a role and that role has to include defense, hustle and rebounding. If it doesn't, they have no role on the Knicks. That's why Obi didn't fit and hopefully that's something the rest of the guys all get and are excited about. Now, if everyone on our team is working to improve what they do, improve conditioning, add wrinkles to their games and generally get with the whole team concept....I'm just saying as Julius did in his interview with PG, something to the effect of 'we're not that far off'. We are a young team that can grow together and we just made the 2nd round of the playoffs. That's a big deal and should add up to continued success under the right coach and the right organization.
I agree that the entire Obi situation was an organizational failure, and I also agree that at the moment, it’s not worth freaking out about. I do, however, think it’ll look a lot worse if he thrives in Indy (or could look a lot better if he gets displaced by a rookie).
On one hand, he was very inconsistent and showed glaring weaknesses in his backup role, thus supporting the argument that he didn’t deserve a bigger one.
On the other hand, when he has gotten opportunity in Randle’s absences, he’s thrived. Fifteen career games as a starter: 20.8 / 5.7 / 3.1 on 69.7 TS% in just under 34 minutes per while never being a ball-stopper / letting the offense flow. If he does this in Indy, the failure might be worth the yelling.
On the other other hand (which I guess is a foot), that’s a tiny sample size, and most of that tiny sample size were meaningless games. If Indy’s not a playoff team, or even sniffing around the play-in (no guarantee), any numbers he puts up could be empty calories.
All of this is to say, it may not be worth crying about now, but it’s also way too early to judge the severity of the mistake (or the compounding of mistakes) overall.
Great newsletter today Jonathan! There are a few points you made that I thought were fascinating:
--I agree that Jalen Brunson could be the “best player, on the floor, in the last five minutes of any game, anywhere in any playoff game.” You and I are of course, are biased as fanatic Knick fans, but I think this is the year the rest of the league starts to realize that Jalen is an all-nba level superstar.
--while I agree, I am flabbergasted (and a bit peeved) at how fast the Nets rebuilt post the Durant/Irving/Harden fiasco. It is a testament to the Nets’ front office, one of the best in the league.
--thus far, it appears that the Knicks are satisfied with “running it back,” (when did that become a phrase?). In my opinion, this is a big mistake. Think back to the playoff games and how we’d lose basically due to poor outside shooting, leadIng to a packed paint, leading to disrupting the Knicks main strength -- the ability of Brunson, Randle, RJ, and Hart’s ability to go to the hole. When that last Miami game ended, I thought for sure, the Knicks would move heaven and earth to rectify this. Unfortunately, besides the nice signing of Dante, this major issue still exists.
--Finally, I too am shocked by the blind review of Obi’s strengths, leading many to bemoan his loss as if he were Xavier McDaniel (I hated, hated, hated when he signed with the Celts). Obi was who Obi was. A very athletic 4, who could run like a gazelle but couldn’t play D, was a poor passer and a very streaky outside shooter. While I agree, drafting him where they did was a major screw-up , but his absence won’t hurt the Knicks unless they fail to find a long, good shooting wing to take Obi’s 12 minutes per game.
One point on them running it back: I think if there was a sensible trade on the table that would have shaken up their core (i.e., move one of RJ or Randle) they'd have done it, but no such trade was ever available that made sense from a value perspective.
Another wrinkle would be league expansion, not only whatever draft situation it would be but also I suspect Memphis joins the Eastern conference & maybe even New Orleans.
Also drafting Obi wasn't a mistake, no one could've predicted my guy Randles emergence at that juncture. Obi should've played 5 more minutes a game sure and with a 8th pick he's been a solid rotation player that's not bad.
I think it was a mistake. I was optimistic and Obi had some good moments but if the team is focused on defense first as I think it is, they should have been able to scout his lack of talent on that end. It's possible he is a fine one on one defender. There is no reason he could not be a guy that crashes the boards and boxes out, but he more often looked lost out there. Where IQ thrived, Obi seemed stuck. Can you scout that? I dunno, but I suspect the Knicks have known early on that he wasn't going to fit and I'm sure that was tough for both sides. I remember all the talk leading up to the draft and most of the fans were high on Toppin, Vassell and Haliburton. I think we'd rather have either of the other two, so, was it a mistake? I think it does turn out to be one, but that happens a LOT in the NBA draft. Do other teams wish they took Robinson, Quickly or Grimes? I'm sure they do, so, it sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.
I was a Devin Vassell guy myself and honestly was strongly against the Obi selection but Obi won me over eventually. I see the vision there with him. We agree more than we disagree, I think there was somewhat more meat on the bone with Obi but he tops out as a good bench piece on a winning team. I wouldn't be surprised if that's where he ends the season in Indiana.
I'm trying to recall one time that Obi chased someone down to block a shot, committed a hard foul, really crashed the boards. I don't know if it's the case where a guy like him isn't committed on both ends, perhaps is waiting to get paid or something, but as much as he's a likeable bloke and does make for incredible highlights, if he can't learn to play both ends of the court he's more likely to be a starter on a terrible team than a guy getting minutes on a winner. Indiana does seem like a nice fit but I'd guess it's 50/50 at best that he gets any kind of mid-level contract after this if he can't put a body on someone.
I expect Obi will thrive offensively and put up some big numbers but still be a defensive liability who would not get or deserve more than his fifteen minutes of fame a game for the Knicks
Amen to let go of the Obi failures finally. Also go ahead Miami and give up what you have left for Dame IF you can. The Knicks will still bypass them within the next season or two. Old Man Time forgets no one.
My only disagreement is Boston. Possibly all anti-Boston wishful thinking, but ...They just traded the heart and sinew of their team to add to their extremely talented roster of soloists. They’ll either blow teams away by “out-talenting” them or fail to gel at key moments and fall apart, and if the latter, it’ll get ugly. I see them falling down this list and being forced to trade one Tatum or Brown (Brown) for a leader.
Bottom line, If Julius and Jalen maintain their level of play and both RJ and Grimes reach or come close to their ceiling then there's a very good chance Knicks take the East within the next few years. Maybe even next season.
If we’re talking 5 years and beyond, I agree with the Miami assessment. But if it’s 2-5, I think the Heat should be much higher.
I think if they get Dame and the team stays healthy, they are right there with Boston as the class of the conference for the next 3 years. I think both Dame and Jimmy have games that will age gracefully, Bam is excellent, and the culture definitely matters. They’re cupboard might be bare as far as draft picks, but the Nuggets just proved that you can jump into any draft in a significant way, and they’ll continue to get quality veterans on bargain deals as long as Riley and Spo are in charge.
I remember when John Starks and Anthony Mason became major parts of the Knicks and they were the two stories I was most excited about in part because of the journey's they taken to get there and how no one even knew who they were having not been draft picks or free agents. Starks started out as a hustle and defense guy with hops and Mason was the same except with physicality instead of leaping ability. They played their way to bigger roles on a team that had established team defense and winning with effort on both ends, crashing the boards, bruising. All this is to say that I think our current team has some of the same concepts and while we now have amazing people like Macri to tell us all about something like summer league or g-league where back in the 90's there wasn't any of this scrutiny even available to the regular person, I think what Jon wrote here about Peterson understanding that summer league is about being 'star in the role' applies to all of these guys and includes rookies how are not blessed with star ability from the jump. Pretty much everyone on our team with the exception of Brunson and Randle are trying to be stars in a role and that role has to include defense, hustle and rebounding. If it doesn't, they have no role on the Knicks. That's why Obi didn't fit and hopefully that's something the rest of the guys all get and are excited about. Now, if everyone on our team is working to improve what they do, improve conditioning, add wrinkles to their games and generally get with the whole team concept....I'm just saying as Julius did in his interview with PG, something to the effect of 'we're not that far off'. We are a young team that can grow together and we just made the 2nd round of the playoffs. That's a big deal and should add up to continued success under the right coach and the right organization.
I agree that the entire Obi situation was an organizational failure, and I also agree that at the moment, it’s not worth freaking out about. I do, however, think it’ll look a lot worse if he thrives in Indy (or could look a lot better if he gets displaced by a rookie).
On one hand, he was very inconsistent and showed glaring weaknesses in his backup role, thus supporting the argument that he didn’t deserve a bigger one.
On the other hand, when he has gotten opportunity in Randle’s absences, he’s thrived. Fifteen career games as a starter: 20.8 / 5.7 / 3.1 on 69.7 TS% in just under 34 minutes per while never being a ball-stopper / letting the offense flow. If he does this in Indy, the failure might be worth the yelling.
On the other other hand (which I guess is a foot), that’s a tiny sample size, and most of that tiny sample size were meaningless games. If Indy’s not a playoff team, or even sniffing around the play-in (no guarantee), any numbers he puts up could be empty calories.
All of this is to say, it may not be worth crying about now, but it’s also way too early to judge the severity of the mistake (or the compounding of mistakes) overall.
(Yes, this was a response to a footnote 😂)
All very fair Mike, all very fair :)
Great newsletter today Jonathan! There are a few points you made that I thought were fascinating:
--I agree that Jalen Brunson could be the “best player, on the floor, in the last five minutes of any game, anywhere in any playoff game.” You and I are of course, are biased as fanatic Knick fans, but I think this is the year the rest of the league starts to realize that Jalen is an all-nba level superstar.
--while I agree, I am flabbergasted (and a bit peeved) at how fast the Nets rebuilt post the Durant/Irving/Harden fiasco. It is a testament to the Nets’ front office, one of the best in the league.
--thus far, it appears that the Knicks are satisfied with “running it back,” (when did that become a phrase?). In my opinion, this is a big mistake. Think back to the playoff games and how we’d lose basically due to poor outside shooting, leadIng to a packed paint, leading to disrupting the Knicks main strength -- the ability of Brunson, Randle, RJ, and Hart’s ability to go to the hole. When that last Miami game ended, I thought for sure, the Knicks would move heaven and earth to rectify this. Unfortunately, besides the nice signing of Dante, this major issue still exists.
--Finally, I too am shocked by the blind review of Obi’s strengths, leading many to bemoan his loss as if he were Xavier McDaniel (I hated, hated, hated when he signed with the Celts). Obi was who Obi was. A very athletic 4, who could run like a gazelle but couldn’t play D, was a poor passer and a very streaky outside shooter. While I agree, drafting him where they did was a major screw-up , but his absence won’t hurt the Knicks unless they fail to find a long, good shooting wing to take Obi’s 12 minutes per game.
One point on them running it back: I think if there was a sensible trade on the table that would have shaken up their core (i.e., move one of RJ or Randle) they'd have done it, but no such trade was ever available that made sense from a value perspective.
Another wrinkle would be league expansion, not only whatever draft situation it would be but also I suspect Memphis joins the Eastern conference & maybe even New Orleans.
Also drafting Obi wasn't a mistake, no one could've predicted my guy Randles emergence at that juncture. Obi should've played 5 more minutes a game sure and with a 8th pick he's been a solid rotation player that's not bad.
I think it was a mistake. I was optimistic and Obi had some good moments but if the team is focused on defense first as I think it is, they should have been able to scout his lack of talent on that end. It's possible he is a fine one on one defender. There is no reason he could not be a guy that crashes the boards and boxes out, but he more often looked lost out there. Where IQ thrived, Obi seemed stuck. Can you scout that? I dunno, but I suspect the Knicks have known early on that he wasn't going to fit and I'm sure that was tough for both sides. I remember all the talk leading up to the draft and most of the fans were high on Toppin, Vassell and Haliburton. I think we'd rather have either of the other two, so, was it a mistake? I think it does turn out to be one, but that happens a LOT in the NBA draft. Do other teams wish they took Robinson, Quickly or Grimes? I'm sure they do, so, it sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.
I was a Devin Vassell guy myself and honestly was strongly against the Obi selection but Obi won me over eventually. I see the vision there with him. We agree more than we disagree, I think there was somewhat more meat on the bone with Obi but he tops out as a good bench piece on a winning team. I wouldn't be surprised if that's where he ends the season in Indiana.
I'm trying to recall one time that Obi chased someone down to block a shot, committed a hard foul, really crashed the boards. I don't know if it's the case where a guy like him isn't committed on both ends, perhaps is waiting to get paid or something, but as much as he's a likeable bloke and does make for incredible highlights, if he can't learn to play both ends of the court he's more likely to be a starter on a terrible team than a guy getting minutes on a winner. Indiana does seem like a nice fit but I'd guess it's 50/50 at best that he gets any kind of mid-level contract after this if he can't put a body on someone.
Yeah, I would be surprised if he got much more than a 2/24 with Indiana
I expect Obi will thrive offensively and put up some big numbers but still be a defensive liability who would not get or deserve more than his fifteen minutes of fame a game for the Knicks
Amen to let go of the Obi failures finally. Also go ahead Miami and give up what you have left for Dame IF you can. The Knicks will still bypass them within the next season or two. Old Man Time forgets no one.
My only disagreement is Boston. Possibly all anti-Boston wishful thinking, but ...They just traded the heart and sinew of their team to add to their extremely talented roster of soloists. They’ll either blow teams away by “out-talenting” them or fail to gel at key moments and fall apart, and if the latter, it’ll get ugly. I see them falling down this list and being forced to trade one Tatum or Brown (Brown) for a leader.
very fair Ben. I think I put them at the top by default. It's not nearly as clear to me as the West was.
Bottom line, If Julius and Jalen maintain their level of play and both RJ and Grimes reach or come close to their ceiling then there's a very good chance Knicks take the East within the next few years. Maybe even next season.
If we’re talking 5 years and beyond, I agree with the Miami assessment. But if it’s 2-5, I think the Heat should be much higher.
I think if they get Dame and the team stays healthy, they are right there with Boston as the class of the conference for the next 3 years. I think both Dame and Jimmy have games that will age gracefully, Bam is excellent, and the culture definitely matters. They’re cupboard might be bare as far as draft picks, but the Nuggets just proved that you can jump into any draft in a significant way, and they’ll continue to get quality veterans on bargain deals as long as Riley and Spo are in charge.
That's fair. I guess I'm a little more frightened by how Jimmy and Dame will age, and also their depth really took a hit this summer.