“ this one started off uglier than an orangutan’s armpit” that seems grossly unfair to one of our closely related evolutionary cousins...
In any case, one of the things I have been thinking about Grimes is that on offense, he plays too upright (on the plus side, might be part of the reason why he gets his 3 ball off so quickly). Seldom see him sink into his hips, and therefor, he doesn’t have much lateral quickness/explosiveness. When he goes to the hoop, it always is kind of a straight line take. He is pretty good at that, but it means he doesn’t have many options if he gets cut-off.
The great athletes intrinsically know how to sink and load their hips to allow them to explode both going forward and laterally. On defense he seems to load his hips when he first confronts the player, but not again as the play progresses. I think it might be the limiting factor on his offensive creation.
I might be out to lunch on this as I haven’t gone back and studied his film. More a general impression of how he looks on the floor coupled with what he does well and poorly.
You nailed it with the Deuce thing. He’s a pro. He’s a great guy to have. He’s not a point guard - at least not yet. He’s actually become duplicative of Grimes. Similar size (slightly smaller) and solid on-ball defense. More importantly, he’s shooting just as well as Grimes (although I thiiiiiink long term I trust Grimes more as a shooter based on form alone). He actually does more than Grimes in the paint and has a little more “dog” in him. Most importantly, perhaps, Deuce is under contract for peanuts for the next 3 years! I’m becoming more comfortable trading Grimes for an on-ball creator and sliding Deuce right into Grimes’ rotation spot.
From there, it comes down to asset management - what point guard is good enough to warrant including Grimes in a trade. I think that it’s only Murray, of the guys who are being discussed? Maybe Jaden Ivey shakes loose from that trainwreck?
Great minds think alike! "Is he worth Grimes" was one of my boxes in today's column! Don't think Detroit would sell THAT low on Ivey, but I could be wrong
You nailed it on the Deuce summary. IMO he’s a more than adequate bench player capable of spelling JB for stretches but not a guy you want to turn the team over to as a starter if Brunson were to be injured for any kind of stretch (which always just feels like an awkward offensive foul away).
I was skeptical about Deuce but have been pleasantly surprised.
1) This was his first game starting so I think we need to give it a minute. 2) His ability to get into the paint was compromised a bit by the Grizzlies injuries which forced them to play a small switching lineup. Let's see if he can run some 1/5 pick and roles today against the bigs on the Magic. 3) My impression when we signed DDV was that he filled in for the Warriors last year as the PG when Steph was injured. It feels to me like if we flip DDV and Grimes so that DDV is the primary or secondary ball handler in the bench, that has a much better chance of working than running the offense through Hart. I think Grimes major gripe was he didn't get the ball very often with RJ, JB and JR. With RJ gone, the usage is way down so it has a better chance of working like it did last year. DDV can continue get more minutes than Grimes, just coming off the bench.
Agreed: While Deuce’s shooting and defending make him a real contributor, he ideally needs to play next to a playmaker who can get into the paint and defend against taller guys.
Agreed: While both of our “point guards” earned stars, our horrendous turnover count was largely caused by a lack of traditional point-guard skill. When the playmaking shifts to Julius and Hart, turnovers abound and our opponents are off on the break. And when Flynn was in, we were outscored. (The other reason Deuce played the entire second half was probably that management wants to see whether more reps help him improve as a penetrator. Quickley got better at that over time, albeit gradually. Rose needs to see what he has before the deadline.)
Agreed: The absurd number of away games (and back-to-backs) so far might help explain the mid-winter-letdown blues. Let’s hope the letdown is momentary. Letdowns are inevitable in a long season. One of Thibs’ strengths is limiting their duration.
Agreed: Neither Obi, RJ, nor IQ is a softie. That way of putting it is especially unfair to RJ, who had trouble defensively when he gained too much weight but is a tough, strong, hard-nosed guy nonetheless. IQ is a great off-ball defender and always works hard when defending a playmaker. But none of these guys is reliably terrifying to play against one on one. The truth in the poorly worded remark is that Thibs and the front office want to maximize the number of Knicks who are exceptionally hard to attack one on one—the absolute opposite of softies. Anunoby brings that and does so without sacrificing IQ’s excellence at defending off the ball. One more step towards a fully realized team identity.
“Santa Clause”: I think you meant Santa Claus. An example of a Santa clause is “knows when you’ve been sleeping.” Wink.
Thanks for another fine column. That goes for the Thibs newsletter too.
When I find myself frustrated by a Thibs decision and look hard enough for what his reasons might be, they almost always become clear. How many times, for example, does a highly experienced coach need to see a taller guard or wing shoot over a small small before deciding to replace the defender? Perhaps only once in a given game. The coach has every similar matchup in mind from every previous game and, equally important, every practice.
Because I coached a different sport at a decent level when I was younger and hate watching friends of mine raked over the coals by fans, reporters, and disgruntled players, it always bothers me when people criticize the lineups and substitutions of highly successful coaches without knowing what happens in practice. A consistent Macri theme I wholeheartedly endorse is “Have a little humility before you denounce or ridicule these folks.” We’re lucky to have a coach of Thibs’ quality and dedication, lucky to have players who want to play for someone like him (when half of NBA players don’t!), and lucky to have commentators who resist the temptation to scapegoat.
Belatedly, thanks so much for the note Jeffrey. You'd think I'd have learned how to spell the big guy's name by 40 years old lol. Guess not. Hope I don't end up on the naughty list next year. As for Thibs, obviously I co-sign. I get into this with Andrew and Jeremy...it's not that he (or any coach) is above reproach, but what gets me is how cavalier most folks seem to be with their criticism, which, I mean...we're fans. This is an entertainment product. Coaches aren't entitled to a trial every time they make a questionable move. I get being frustrated and letting those frustrations loose. At the same time, there are many people in my line of work who claim to think very deeply about these sorts of things, and they're the ones who go off the deep end the fastest. That's probably what bothers me the most.
Deuce is an conundrum. The real question is, does his defensive abilities mitigate his offensive limitations. Given his lack of standard PNR offense it was an absolute must for him to be a knockdown shooter. Given the recent shot I have a lot of hope. If the Knicks get another creator Deuce's minute will be reduced to zero. He needs more time.
We need to see the offense get acclimated. Those turnovers are due in part to players doing thing they aren't used to doing. Growing pains. Not going crazy about it.
Deuce is similar OG actually. OG cant create either, but his other attributes make up for it. Jury is still out on Deuce and I want to see more reps. I fear there is too much emphasis on the negative with him. That Philly game was insanity. Not to mention the Memphis game. Even in the best of scenarios he will never be the second best creator on a contender. The Knicks only need 10 or so minutes in the playoffs of deuce.
Have to say I'm tired of the talk about trading Grimes. He's a part of the fabric of this team with his defense, taking on opponents' offensive weapons, and is a solid three-point threat (even at times during crunch time). Trade him and a the team's strength (defense and depth) becomes endangered. For Murray? I question him--he's one the better players on a losing team. Brogdon? I'm no master of cap space and contracts, but don't the Knicks have enough other assets to get him? Like the old Grandmaster Flash song White Lines says, "Don't Don't Do It."
yes, all us human beings do say stupid shit, very wise observation. Maybe Brogdon can provide back up Bruson role and still leave a place for Deuce? It might kick Grimes back to the bench, but maybe the most consistent of Grimes v Deuce is the 9th man. Right now that may be Deuce.
Of the 2, I could see Deuce being out, although I don't expect it. Grimes will be in for as long as he's on the team (which I don't suspect will be long)
Do you really think Grimes is on the block after being the sticking point in a DONOVAN MITCHELL trade? I’d be pretty annoyed if we ended up with Dejounte instead of Mitchell if we give up on Grimes.
We know more about Grimes now. His play has regressed a bit at the very time when a decision has to be made about whether he belongs in the team’s core. Peter Imhoff’s post this morning raised good questions about Grimes’ weaknesses. I would add that his frustration over playing time and reluctance to play with the first unit are probably major counts against him from the vantage point of the front office. Obi and IQ were frustrated and dealt. Obi went public, as did Grimes. Hart can get away with that sort of thing if it doesn’t fester. The youngsters can’t.
I do but if it is any comfort we likely don’t get OG if we make that trade and I think we will end up using Murray to get Mitchell unless Murray fits too well to trade
“ this one started off uglier than an orangutan’s armpit” that seems grossly unfair to one of our closely related evolutionary cousins...
In any case, one of the things I have been thinking about Grimes is that on offense, he plays too upright (on the plus side, might be part of the reason why he gets his 3 ball off so quickly). Seldom see him sink into his hips, and therefor, he doesn’t have much lateral quickness/explosiveness. When he goes to the hoop, it always is kind of a straight line take. He is pretty good at that, but it means he doesn’t have many options if he gets cut-off.
The great athletes intrinsically know how to sink and load their hips to allow them to explode both going forward and laterally. On defense he seems to load his hips when he first confronts the player, but not again as the play progresses. I think it might be the limiting factor on his offensive creation.
I might be out to lunch on this as I haven’t gone back and studied his film. More a general impression of how he looks on the floor coupled with what he does well and poorly.
I think you're spot on with some of these issues, and it all factors in to why the team may be exploring his market
You nailed it with the Deuce thing. He’s a pro. He’s a great guy to have. He’s not a point guard - at least not yet. He’s actually become duplicative of Grimes. Similar size (slightly smaller) and solid on-ball defense. More importantly, he’s shooting just as well as Grimes (although I thiiiiiink long term I trust Grimes more as a shooter based on form alone). He actually does more than Grimes in the paint and has a little more “dog” in him. Most importantly, perhaps, Deuce is under contract for peanuts for the next 3 years! I’m becoming more comfortable trading Grimes for an on-ball creator and sliding Deuce right into Grimes’ rotation spot.
From there, it comes down to asset management - what point guard is good enough to warrant including Grimes in a trade. I think that it’s only Murray, of the guys who are being discussed? Maybe Jaden Ivey shakes loose from that trainwreck?
Great minds think alike! "Is he worth Grimes" was one of my boxes in today's column! Don't think Detroit would sell THAT low on Ivey, but I could be wrong
You nailed it on the Deuce summary. IMO he’s a more than adequate bench player capable of spelling JB for stretches but not a guy you want to turn the team over to as a starter if Brunson were to be injured for any kind of stretch (which always just feels like an awkward offensive foul away).
I was skeptical about Deuce but have been pleasantly surprised.
1) This was his first game starting so I think we need to give it a minute. 2) His ability to get into the paint was compromised a bit by the Grizzlies injuries which forced them to play a small switching lineup. Let's see if he can run some 1/5 pick and roles today against the bigs on the Magic. 3) My impression when we signed DDV was that he filled in for the Warriors last year as the PG when Steph was injured. It feels to me like if we flip DDV and Grimes so that DDV is the primary or secondary ball handler in the bench, that has a much better chance of working than running the offense through Hart. I think Grimes major gripe was he didn't get the ball very often with RJ, JB and JR. With RJ gone, the usage is way down so it has a better chance of working like it did last year. DDV can continue get more minutes than Grimes, just coming off the bench.
Agreed: While Deuce’s shooting and defending make him a real contributor, he ideally needs to play next to a playmaker who can get into the paint and defend against taller guys.
Agreed: While both of our “point guards” earned stars, our horrendous turnover count was largely caused by a lack of traditional point-guard skill. When the playmaking shifts to Julius and Hart, turnovers abound and our opponents are off on the break. And when Flynn was in, we were outscored. (The other reason Deuce played the entire second half was probably that management wants to see whether more reps help him improve as a penetrator. Quickley got better at that over time, albeit gradually. Rose needs to see what he has before the deadline.)
Agreed: The absurd number of away games (and back-to-backs) so far might help explain the mid-winter-letdown blues. Let’s hope the letdown is momentary. Letdowns are inevitable in a long season. One of Thibs’ strengths is limiting their duration.
Agreed: Neither Obi, RJ, nor IQ is a softie. That way of putting it is especially unfair to RJ, who had trouble defensively when he gained too much weight but is a tough, strong, hard-nosed guy nonetheless. IQ is a great off-ball defender and always works hard when defending a playmaker. But none of these guys is reliably terrifying to play against one on one. The truth in the poorly worded remark is that Thibs and the front office want to maximize the number of Knicks who are exceptionally hard to attack one on one—the absolute opposite of softies. Anunoby brings that and does so without sacrificing IQ’s excellence at defending off the ball. One more step towards a fully realized team identity.
“Santa Clause”: I think you meant Santa Claus. An example of a Santa clause is “knows when you’ve been sleeping.” Wink.
Thanks for another fine column. That goes for the Thibs newsletter too.
When I find myself frustrated by a Thibs decision and look hard enough for what his reasons might be, they almost always become clear. How many times, for example, does a highly experienced coach need to see a taller guard or wing shoot over a small small before deciding to replace the defender? Perhaps only once in a given game. The coach has every similar matchup in mind from every previous game and, equally important, every practice.
Because I coached a different sport at a decent level when I was younger and hate watching friends of mine raked over the coals by fans, reporters, and disgruntled players, it always bothers me when people criticize the lineups and substitutions of highly successful coaches without knowing what happens in practice. A consistent Macri theme I wholeheartedly endorse is “Have a little humility before you denounce or ridicule these folks.” We’re lucky to have a coach of Thibs’ quality and dedication, lucky to have players who want to play for someone like him (when half of NBA players don’t!), and lucky to have commentators who resist the temptation to scapegoat.
Belatedly, thanks so much for the note Jeffrey. You'd think I'd have learned how to spell the big guy's name by 40 years old lol. Guess not. Hope I don't end up on the naughty list next year. As for Thibs, obviously I co-sign. I get into this with Andrew and Jeremy...it's not that he (or any coach) is above reproach, but what gets me is how cavalier most folks seem to be with their criticism, which, I mean...we're fans. This is an entertainment product. Coaches aren't entitled to a trial every time they make a questionable move. I get being frustrated and letting those frustrations loose. At the same time, there are many people in my line of work who claim to think very deeply about these sorts of things, and they're the ones who go off the deep end the fastest. That's probably what bothers me the most.
Deuce is an conundrum. The real question is, does his defensive abilities mitigate his offensive limitations. Given his lack of standard PNR offense it was an absolute must for him to be a knockdown shooter. Given the recent shot I have a lot of hope. If the Knicks get another creator Deuce's minute will be reduced to zero. He needs more time.
We need to see the offense get acclimated. Those turnovers are due in part to players doing thing they aren't used to doing. Growing pains. Not going crazy about it.
Deuce is similar OG actually. OG cant create either, but his other attributes make up for it. Jury is still out on Deuce and I want to see more reps. I fear there is too much emphasis on the negative with him. That Philly game was insanity. Not to mention the Memphis game. Even in the best of scenarios he will never be the second best creator on a contender. The Knicks only need 10 or so minutes in the playoffs of deuce.
Have to say I'm tired of the talk about trading Grimes. He's a part of the fabric of this team with his defense, taking on opponents' offensive weapons, and is a solid three-point threat (even at times during crunch time). Trade him and a the team's strength (defense and depth) becomes endangered. For Murray? I question him--he's one the better players on a losing team. Brogdon? I'm no master of cap space and contracts, but don't the Knicks have enough other assets to get him? Like the old Grandmaster Flash song White Lines says, "Don't Don't Do It."
I hear you. Even in light of yesterday's news, I'd be very upset if they moved Grimes in an imperfect deal.
yes, all us human beings do say stupid shit, very wise observation. Maybe Brogdon can provide back up Bruson role and still leave a place for Deuce? It might kick Grimes back to the bench, but maybe the most consistent of Grimes v Deuce is the 9th man. Right now that may be Deuce.
Will only one of Grimes or Deuce be in the rotation after the deadline?
Of the 2, I could see Deuce being out, although I don't expect it. Grimes will be in for as long as he's on the team (which I don't suspect will be long)
Do you really think Grimes is on the block after being the sticking point in a DONOVAN MITCHELL trade? I’d be pretty annoyed if we ended up with Dejounte instead of Mitchell if we give up on Grimes.
Not gonna lie, I had wind of the news before I wrote this newsletter, and well before writing this column. So yeah, I kinda cheated!
it was the number of unprotected picks and grimes. It was Ainge being greedy that was the sticking point. and he got it all from Cleveland.
We know more about Grimes now. His play has regressed a bit at the very time when a decision has to be made about whether he belongs in the team’s core. Peter Imhoff’s post this morning raised good questions about Grimes’ weaknesses. I would add that his frustration over playing time and reluctance to play with the first unit are probably major counts against him from the vantage point of the front office. Obi and IQ were frustrated and dealt. Obi went public, as did Grimes. Hart can get away with that sort of thing if it doesn’t fester. The youngsters can’t.
I do but if it is any comfort we likely don’t get OG if we make that trade and I think we will end up using Murray to get Mitchell unless Murray fits too well to trade