The obvious question here is why Thibs plays the starters so many minutes when the real question has to be what are the alternatives. In close games I understand the logic because the starters give us the best chance to win. I still think Thibs needs to work in a few bench guys during those games in order to prepare them for a larger role down the stretch. Steve Kerr said this last season about his bench and it absolutely makes sense because you can’t expect a guy to come in and contribute if they’ve never been in a meaningful game. Huk has experience from his time in the Euro league and Kolek seems ready for a larger chunk of minutes too. Obviously we are not going to win every game, so some games have to-be conceded earlier in order to get our starters rest and our bench some reps. Just a thought.
Thibs cannot keep playing the starters such heavy minutes without expecting the law of diminishing returns to take effect. Even if you need to sacrifice some early season wins, breaking in Kolek at the very least will prove long-term benefit.
And for the life of me, I will never understand games where the Knicks are up 15-20 points in the last couple of minutes and yet Thibs is still playing the starters.
Finally, the front office must have known dealing all those picks for Bridges and losing iHart, and two-for one in the Towns deal would leave the bench thin with very little in the way of assets to import a strong bench.
I agree! On a side note,it seems like Towns is trying hard to out play the narrative from his from previous stint with Thibs in Minnesota. It’s obvious that Towns has matured and is willing to put in the work necessary for this team to succeed. Given our lack of depth at center it’s going to be very important to keep him “JB as well” fresh for a deep playoff run.
Regarding the bench, one of the reasons for Brunson's success was bringing in players like Hart and DDV and now Mikal that he was comfortable with. The FO seems to have repeated the strategy bringing in Payne and Shamet who played with Mikal in Phoenix. So, to the extent this is about helping Mikal acclimate in year 1, maybe it's ok. But, after watching the NBA for 30+ years I feel like I knew what Payne and Shamet were before the start of the season which is unreliable post-season performers which is why as veterans, they were available on the scrap heap for peanuts. If they were actually good we couldn't have afforded them. I think we are seeing now that you basically get what you pay for.
My gripe is that Thibs has almost always prioritized veterans over younger players in ways that fans argue don't pass the smell test throughout his time in NY. Were Elfrid Payton and Alec Burks ever better point guards for the Knicks than IQ, was Fournier ever better for the Knicks than Grimes, etc? Thibs just seems to have a default setting preferring the veteran in all cases regardless of performance. And, to be fair, Thibs has been very successful with his approach of using a short rotation built around veterans in the regular season and first round of the playoffs. But, we now have higher aspirations of being a championship contender and need to be able to win on the margins in the later rounds of the playoffs. It's a different challenge.
This year, Kolek, Hukporti and Pacome have had some nice moments with the Knicks. Kolek appears overqualified for the G-League. I get that Pacome's struggling in the G-leage at the moment. The rookies are at the beginning of their careers and have an opportunity to grow and get better if they get a shot at playing. On the other hand, Payne and Shamet are what they are and it isn't good enough to be honest. 2024 was supposed to be a historically weak draft and these are later draft picks so maybe the guys we drafted are actually not very good. It would be unlikely we got three rotation players with later picks. But we won't know unless we give them a shot.
To build on that - if you figure in the playoffs the rotation is at most 8-9 guys which means the 5 starters plus Deuce, Precious, Mitch or player we trade for. So odds are Payne and Shamat never see the floor. Which is why playing them now
over Kolek makes zero sense for the long term. Both dudes are who they are but Kolek is just starting / why not give him as much time as needed to grow as a player.
So I've been thinking about the realistic path to the winning The Finals. How have other champions done it? How many times did they have to "knock on the door"
I went through THE LAST 30 YEARS OF NBA CHAMPIONS to see how many of them were knocking on the door in years prior. PAY ATTENTION TO THE ASTERISKS.
94 - Rockets* were in conf semis 93
95 - Rockets
96 - Bulls (Jordan back)
97 - Bulls
98 - Bulls
99 - Spurs were in conf semis 95, 96, 98
00 - Lakers were conf finals in 98, semis in 97
01 - Lakers
02 - Lakers
03 - Spurs were in conf finals in 01, semis in 02
04 - Pistons were in conf finals in 03, semis in 02
05 - Spurs were in semis in 04
06 - Miami* (Shaq) was in conf finals in 05
07 - Spurs were in semis in 06
08 - Celtics* (big 3)
09 - Lakers* (Gasol) were in finals in 08, conf finals in 03, 04
10 - Lakers
11 - Mavericks* were in semis in 09
12 - Miami* (big 3) was in finals in 11
13 - Miami
14 - Spurs were in conf finals in 12, finals in 13
15 - Warriors* were in semis in 13
16 - Cavs* (Lebron)
17 - Warriors (superteam)
18 - Warriors
19 - Raptors were in conf finals in 18, 16, semis in 17 (plus Kawhi)
20 - Lakers* (Anthony Davis + Lebron)
21 - Bucks were in conf finals in 19, semis in 20
22 - Warriors (healthy)
23 - Nuggets were in semis in 21, conf finals 20 (Warriors first round in 22)
24 - Celtics were in conf finals in 18, 20, 22, 23
The asterisks are outlier years. In most other years, the Champion has been in semis or conf finals for multiple seasons prior. And if you look at all the asterisks where there isn't a (big reason) next to it - you're left with only 3 teams in 30 years
it's a good point, though the new CBA is going to make it harder for teams to hang around the late playoffs (not impossible, just harder) for a while hoping they get that run that leads to a title. I think Knicks are set up to not go over the second apron for an extended period and keep this team together and we've already had a few playoff runs; however, how the Knicks are able to build from here is a legit question.
They are over the cap so can only use exceptions / trades / min contracts / draft to get players. They have a very limited number of picks which makes it hard to hit in the draft / make a trade. Min contract guys and exception guys that are quality depth players are hard to come by.
I’ll add as a defense to Thibs - his teams traditionally have a better record in the second half of every season. We’ve seen that in every season he’s coached the Knicks. How do you reconcile that with the notion that he runs his players into the ground?
If the season ended in the regular season, that'd be a fair argument...but the playoffs (if you're making a deep run) is like a whole other quarter of a season, played at 50% higher intensity (s/o Jarrett Allen & the lights).
So to be fair, the Thibs regular season idea is moreso the belief of the car analogy...that these 40+ mins every night when no one else is doing it consistently is the equivalent of always driving your car in 5th gear...and then when the playoffs come, there is no extra gear to get to.
The call for patience is fair and wise—patience not just until Deuce or Mitch is back, or to the trade deadline, but through the summer and beyond. Most championship squads were not built in a single offseason. We have a core of six players who could easily be together for the next 4 or 5 seasons. We need to continue adding and developing talent until all the complementary pieces are in place, and we’ve got an FO that appears to be best in biz when it comes to making moves and managing resources. There is no question we’ll be competing for a title in every season throughout that window, but we also need to be prepared for disappointing games and disappointing series. All we can ask for is effort, competitiveness, and beautiful basketball every game. Patience may be a virtue, but it is not a gift; it’s a skill that must be practiced.
1. The Knicks are a very very good team and they're nearly always fun to watch -- praise the goddess, god, the gods, the universe, Lizzo, Bob Dylan, the movies... whatever you find sacred.
2. Thibs has created a rock-solid culture, playing a big role in utterly transforming the franchise from joke to contender. Any discussion of his future or fitness should acknowledge this and be sufficiently respectful.
3. Losing 2 games in the way they lost these two isn't the end of the world -- nor, frankly, is it that meaningful.
4. The Knicks don't have elite depth. It was the cost of doing business (which you would do 10 times out of 10).
5. Thibs is who he is. He's done baking. He has tinkered around the edges over the years, but this is the plan, the strategy, the style. If it's going to change it's up to Leon Rose and the other execs to either lean on him or replace him.
6. The roster has partly been built around Thibs, so replacing him would be a bigger challenge than usual.
7. Personally I don't think the Knicks can win a championship with Thibs.
8. The great coaches haven't just been motivators, but master tacticians. Thibs is neither a great Xs and Os guy nor is he skillful with respect to the roster. His skill lies in brute force... in extracting effort and discipline. It should not be underestimated.
9. Two things go hand-in-hand: failing to allow younger players to develop and play through rough stretches (when they've demonstrated they're NBA players) and overplaying vets. The opportunity cost of the former combined with the risks of the latter leaves you with a smaller margin for error than other teams. In an NBA this competitive that's not good.
(9.5. Yes, there have been no data demonstrating that either Thibs' players or high-minutes guys are more prone to serious injury, and yes, some of these guys *want* to play 57 minutes a night. But having had 3(!) basketball-related ACL tears and being related to an irritating number of physicians I can tell you that there are data showing that serious injuries are exponentially more likely when the body is exhausted. There is a benefit to pushing through exhaustion to increase fitness, but too much and the returns are diminishing.)
10. Thibs' defensive schemes, rooted in a prior era and only adjusted for today's NBA, allows too many open threes. Nothing infuses a team with more confidence, more rhythm, so much as watching a few threes splash through the net.
11. Which yields the irony of hearing commentators say, far too often, that such and such rookie/G-leaguer/former grocery clerk has hit their season average in the first quarter against the Knicks because they got hot while shooting virtually unguarded threes. It hurts just a bit extra because it means *their* bench guys are getting valuable reps.
12. Far too often the Knicks either give up a lead or fall into a deeper hole because fresh legs come off the bench and guys who aren't nearly as talented as the Knicks run themselves into a rhythm.
13. The starters are so unbelievably talented and the coach so inspiring that this team can overcome many of these obstacles -- particularly against inferior teams. But I have trouble seeing the Knicks being managed and coached the way they have been for the past few years actually winning a championship.
Disappointing but not unexpected! Because of how he played the starters vs OKC, Thibs gave out more minutes to the bench (Precious 27m,Shamet 17m, Payne 14m) & they "contributed" a total of 17 points. And, while two poor 3 point shooting teams shot .519 & .541, the Knicks shot .281 & .267 from 3 (The defense is improving? Right? 3 Point Shooting has improved? Right?)! Outscored 41-17 in the third (What happens at halftime?), the second half performances of Friday & especially Saturday were atrocious! With Deuce out, Thibs has gone to his playoff substitution mode in January. While other teams we play don't seem to have a problem getting their rookies into their rotation. only Thibs does. He compounds the problem by continuing to keep his starters in games where the result is not in question. Again, on Saturday night, KAT gets hurt with a minute thirty left in the game when he should have been on the bench, especially after tough back to back games. I've tried to mellow on Thibs coaching decisions over the years, but his lack of flexibility when it comes to substitutions, drives me crazy! Bridges & Hart are #1 & #2 in minutes played in the entire NBA (OG is 7th). When the Knicks are winning, it's easy to overlook Thib's shortcomings, but this weekend, they were on full display! And, there's no easy answer, as the adage "you can't teach an old dog new tricks!" is certainly applicable when it comes to Thibs!
This is fine, but why don't rookies play? It is not like they miraculously get better on the bench. Against "bad" teams is the time to work them in. Kolek is the only one merits playing time, he tears up the G league when he plays. Dadiet is not good or not ready or both and needs to play in the G league every night. Even there he seems to disappear. We mortgaged our future so there is no option elsewhere. I still think Tibs need some flexibility. Being careful after the injury is a bit silly when he lacks any caution in the game.
That's the thing re: Dadiet...if the window is 2 or 3 yrs with this bunch with limited roster flexibility, then maybe a higher floor lower ceiling wing like Ryan Dunn or Jaylen Wells (whi had more college experience)should have been then move rather than a project like Dadiet.
The 2nd round (and late first rookies) who earned Thibs' trust were all guys who played multiple yrs in college (Grimes, IQ, Deuce...Dadiet seems more in the line of Reddish, where at least immediately, he's not Thibs' type of guy
To echo everyone else's sentiments, at this point you have to figure out a way to get more run for Kolek who not only looks like he can handle it but also appears to be a Thibs type of guy. And while I know Macri gave him a star for the Bulls game, I'm at the stage where I don't want Cam Payne seeing meaningful minutes. He seems like a great teammate and cheerleader but he absolutely is not the right fit for this team, especially in that important of a role. He takes way too many plays off on defense, he is a certified chucker (even if shots do sometimes go in) and he's in his early 30's. He is what he is at this point and that's a 9th/10th man at best. I honestly think with Kolek you get a way higher floor than Payne and potentially a higher ceiling long term.
Might not be far to zero in on this one guy but for all the ways this team is constructed and what we know this coach looks for and this front office likes i just can't understand how Cam Payne has such a big role - he is the exact wrong type of player for this squad.
I’m simply can’t believe the #ForeThibs crowd is emboldened by two losses. Thought we covered this last year. This is how the guy coaches. It is inextricably tied to who is our HC and we can’t line item veto elements of his style we don’t like.
The upcoming stretch of 11 back-to-back games, as Macri and KFS pointed out, will be a defining test for this team. The second game of each set will push our legs, depth, and conditioning to the brink. Josh Hart has shown what’s possible with his relentless fitness—his Peloton FTP level is no joke—but not everyone is there yet. Heck I can only crack 1/3 of Josh's levels. This is where the delicate ecosystem of starters, bench development, practice time, and conditioning all come into play.
Right now, we’re walking a tightrope. The starters are logging heavy minutes, sometimes skipping practices to manage their workload at Thibs' behest unlike other coaches. That leaves the bench with fewer reps, and with only Deuce as a reliable bench scorer, the rotation feels thin. The problem compounds itself—starters get overburdened, bench players don’t develop enough, and the cycle repeats.
Depth is the key to breaking this cycle. If we could add at least one more 10+ ppg bench player—whether it’s Payne, Kolek, Shamet, or Precious—we’d lighten the starters’ load and stay competitive against teams like OKC, Cavs, or Boston, who thrive on depth. But this is easier said than done. The front office has limited assets to make a move mid-season, and development takes time.
The trade deadline, though, brings excitement. Brock Aller and Leon Rose have proven they can find value where others can’t. Whether it’s small trades, finding undervalued players, or waiting until the off-season to maximize picks, there’s hope for improving this roster. Thibs, too, will have a role in keeping players fresh and ready, ensuring we manage this delicate balance as best as possible.
This stretch will show how resilient and adaptable this team is. The system isn’t perfect, but the potential is huge. With a bit more depth and conditioning, we could turn this grind into a springboard for bigger things.
In Leon, Brock, and Thibs, we trust or must learn to trust.
The latest cap pod with Jeremy was both great and depressing 😂 To do all that work and end up on Alec Burks? Good reminder that the fireworks that have marked the past year or so are over with - for at least the next year, it's very likely going to be about margin moves.
Like Jon, I think they wind up with Nick Richards, dealing Mitch in a separate deal or over the summer. This FO has given no fucks before about creating an awkward situation if they felt it would benefit winning - and I could see them at least doing that here with Richards, who they've liked and been linked to for well over a year.
If they deal Precious and a second or two for Richards AND find a separate deal for Mitch, they'd be wise to make sure whoever they acquire can play alongside Kolek and Deuce long-term. In other words, wing help, please!
Why in gods name would you not empty the bench.....It would drive me crazy when Van Gundy would leave Ewing in with Knicks up 15 and minutes to play....You only have so many miles on those knees....smh
The obvious question here is why Thibs plays the starters so many minutes when the real question has to be what are the alternatives. In close games I understand the logic because the starters give us the best chance to win. I still think Thibs needs to work in a few bench guys during those games in order to prepare them for a larger role down the stretch. Steve Kerr said this last season about his bench and it absolutely makes sense because you can’t expect a guy to come in and contribute if they’ve never been in a meaningful game. Huk has experience from his time in the Euro league and Kolek seems ready for a larger chunk of minutes too. Obviously we are not going to win every game, so some games have to-be conceded earlier in order to get our starters rest and our bench some reps. Just a thought.
A very good thought :)
You reap what you sow.
Thibs cannot keep playing the starters such heavy minutes without expecting the law of diminishing returns to take effect. Even if you need to sacrifice some early season wins, breaking in Kolek at the very least will prove long-term benefit.
And for the life of me, I will never understand games where the Knicks are up 15-20 points in the last couple of minutes and yet Thibs is still playing the starters.
Finally, the front office must have known dealing all those picks for Bridges and losing iHart, and two-for one in the Towns deal would leave the bench thin with very little in the way of assets to import a strong bench.
I agree! On a side note,it seems like Towns is trying hard to out play the narrative from his from previous stint with Thibs in Minnesota. It’s obvious that Towns has matured and is willing to put in the work necessary for this team to succeed. Given our lack of depth at center it’s going to be very important to keep him “JB as well” fresh for a deep playoff run.
Regarding the bench, one of the reasons for Brunson's success was bringing in players like Hart and DDV and now Mikal that he was comfortable with. The FO seems to have repeated the strategy bringing in Payne and Shamet who played with Mikal in Phoenix. So, to the extent this is about helping Mikal acclimate in year 1, maybe it's ok. But, after watching the NBA for 30+ years I feel like I knew what Payne and Shamet were before the start of the season which is unreliable post-season performers which is why as veterans, they were available on the scrap heap for peanuts. If they were actually good we couldn't have afforded them. I think we are seeing now that you basically get what you pay for.
My gripe is that Thibs has almost always prioritized veterans over younger players in ways that fans argue don't pass the smell test throughout his time in NY. Were Elfrid Payton and Alec Burks ever better point guards for the Knicks than IQ, was Fournier ever better for the Knicks than Grimes, etc? Thibs just seems to have a default setting preferring the veteran in all cases regardless of performance. And, to be fair, Thibs has been very successful with his approach of using a short rotation built around veterans in the regular season and first round of the playoffs. But, we now have higher aspirations of being a championship contender and need to be able to win on the margins in the later rounds of the playoffs. It's a different challenge.
This year, Kolek, Hukporti and Pacome have had some nice moments with the Knicks. Kolek appears overqualified for the G-League. I get that Pacome's struggling in the G-leage at the moment. The rookies are at the beginning of their careers and have an opportunity to grow and get better if they get a shot at playing. On the other hand, Payne and Shamet are what they are and it isn't good enough to be honest. 2024 was supposed to be a historically weak draft and these are later draft picks so maybe the guys we drafted are actually not very good. It would be unlikely we got three rotation players with later picks. But we won't know unless we give them a shot.
Very well said (and you said a lot ha).
To build on that - if you figure in the playoffs the rotation is at most 8-9 guys which means the 5 starters plus Deuce, Precious, Mitch or player we trade for. So odds are Payne and Shamat never see the floor. Which is why playing them now
over Kolek makes zero sense for the long term. Both dudes are who they are but Kolek is just starting / why not give him as much time as needed to grow as a player.
So I've been thinking about the realistic path to the winning The Finals. How have other champions done it? How many times did they have to "knock on the door"
I went through THE LAST 30 YEARS OF NBA CHAMPIONS to see how many of them were knocking on the door in years prior. PAY ATTENTION TO THE ASTERISKS.
94 - Rockets* were in conf semis 93
95 - Rockets
96 - Bulls (Jordan back)
97 - Bulls
98 - Bulls
99 - Spurs were in conf semis 95, 96, 98
00 - Lakers were conf finals in 98, semis in 97
01 - Lakers
02 - Lakers
03 - Spurs were in conf finals in 01, semis in 02
04 - Pistons were in conf finals in 03, semis in 02
05 - Spurs were in semis in 04
06 - Miami* (Shaq) was in conf finals in 05
07 - Spurs were in semis in 06
08 - Celtics* (big 3)
09 - Lakers* (Gasol) were in finals in 08, conf finals in 03, 04
10 - Lakers
11 - Mavericks* were in semis in 09
12 - Miami* (big 3) was in finals in 11
13 - Miami
14 - Spurs were in conf finals in 12, finals in 13
15 - Warriors* were in semis in 13
16 - Cavs* (Lebron)
17 - Warriors (superteam)
18 - Warriors
19 - Raptors were in conf finals in 18, 16, semis in 17 (plus Kawhi)
20 - Lakers* (Anthony Davis + Lebron)
21 - Bucks were in conf finals in 19, semis in 20
22 - Warriors (healthy)
23 - Nuggets were in semis in 21, conf finals 20 (Warriors first round in 22)
24 - Celtics were in conf finals in 18, 20, 22, 23
The asterisks are outlier years. In most other years, the Champion has been in semis or conf finals for multiple seasons prior. And if you look at all the asterisks where there isn't a (big reason) next to it - you're left with only 3 teams in 30 years
Warriors when Steph became Steph
Rockets when Hakeem jumped up a level
Mavericks when the stars just aligned perfectly
Something to chew on.
it's a good point, though the new CBA is going to make it harder for teams to hang around the late playoffs (not impossible, just harder) for a while hoping they get that run that leads to a title. I think Knicks are set up to not go over the second apron for an extended period and keep this team together and we've already had a few playoff runs; however, how the Knicks are able to build from here is a legit question.
They are over the cap so can only use exceptions / trades / min contracts / draft to get players. They have a very limited number of picks which makes it hard to hit in the draft / make a trade. Min contract guys and exception guys that are quality depth players are hard to come by.
I’ll add as a defense to Thibs - his teams traditionally have a better record in the second half of every season. We’ve seen that in every season he’s coached the Knicks. How do you reconcile that with the notion that he runs his players into the ground?
If the season ended in the regular season, that'd be a fair argument...but the playoffs (if you're making a deep run) is like a whole other quarter of a season, played at 50% higher intensity (s/o Jarrett Allen & the lights).
So to be fair, the Thibs regular season idea is moreso the belief of the car analogy...that these 40+ mins every night when no one else is doing it consistently is the equivalent of always driving your car in 5th gear...and then when the playoffs come, there is no extra gear to get to.
The call for patience is fair and wise—patience not just until Deuce or Mitch is back, or to the trade deadline, but through the summer and beyond. Most championship squads were not built in a single offseason. We have a core of six players who could easily be together for the next 4 or 5 seasons. We need to continue adding and developing talent until all the complementary pieces are in place, and we’ve got an FO that appears to be best in biz when it comes to making moves and managing resources. There is no question we’ll be competing for a title in every season throughout that window, but we also need to be prepared for disappointing games and disappointing series. All we can ask for is effort, competitiveness, and beautiful basketball every game. Patience may be a virtue, but it is not a gift; it’s a skill that must be practiced.
1. The Knicks are a very very good team and they're nearly always fun to watch -- praise the goddess, god, the gods, the universe, Lizzo, Bob Dylan, the movies... whatever you find sacred.
2. Thibs has created a rock-solid culture, playing a big role in utterly transforming the franchise from joke to contender. Any discussion of his future or fitness should acknowledge this and be sufficiently respectful.
3. Losing 2 games in the way they lost these two isn't the end of the world -- nor, frankly, is it that meaningful.
4. The Knicks don't have elite depth. It was the cost of doing business (which you would do 10 times out of 10).
5. Thibs is who he is. He's done baking. He has tinkered around the edges over the years, but this is the plan, the strategy, the style. If it's going to change it's up to Leon Rose and the other execs to either lean on him or replace him.
6. The roster has partly been built around Thibs, so replacing him would be a bigger challenge than usual.
7. Personally I don't think the Knicks can win a championship with Thibs.
8. The great coaches haven't just been motivators, but master tacticians. Thibs is neither a great Xs and Os guy nor is he skillful with respect to the roster. His skill lies in brute force... in extracting effort and discipline. It should not be underestimated.
9. Two things go hand-in-hand: failing to allow younger players to develop and play through rough stretches (when they've demonstrated they're NBA players) and overplaying vets. The opportunity cost of the former combined with the risks of the latter leaves you with a smaller margin for error than other teams. In an NBA this competitive that's not good.
(9.5. Yes, there have been no data demonstrating that either Thibs' players or high-minutes guys are more prone to serious injury, and yes, some of these guys *want* to play 57 minutes a night. But having had 3(!) basketball-related ACL tears and being related to an irritating number of physicians I can tell you that there are data showing that serious injuries are exponentially more likely when the body is exhausted. There is a benefit to pushing through exhaustion to increase fitness, but too much and the returns are diminishing.)
10. Thibs' defensive schemes, rooted in a prior era and only adjusted for today's NBA, allows too many open threes. Nothing infuses a team with more confidence, more rhythm, so much as watching a few threes splash through the net.
11. Which yields the irony of hearing commentators say, far too often, that such and such rookie/G-leaguer/former grocery clerk has hit their season average in the first quarter against the Knicks because they got hot while shooting virtually unguarded threes. It hurts just a bit extra because it means *their* bench guys are getting valuable reps.
12. Far too often the Knicks either give up a lead or fall into a deeper hole because fresh legs come off the bench and guys who aren't nearly as talented as the Knicks run themselves into a rhythm.
13. The starters are so unbelievably talented and the coach so inspiring that this team can overcome many of these obstacles -- particularly against inferior teams. But I have trouble seeing the Knicks being managed and coached the way they have been for the past few years actually winning a championship.
14. I dearly dearly hope I'm wrong.
15. It wouldn't be the first time.
Disappointing but not unexpected! Because of how he played the starters vs OKC, Thibs gave out more minutes to the bench (Precious 27m,Shamet 17m, Payne 14m) & they "contributed" a total of 17 points. And, while two poor 3 point shooting teams shot .519 & .541, the Knicks shot .281 & .267 from 3 (The defense is improving? Right? 3 Point Shooting has improved? Right?)! Outscored 41-17 in the third (What happens at halftime?), the second half performances of Friday & especially Saturday were atrocious! With Deuce out, Thibs has gone to his playoff substitution mode in January. While other teams we play don't seem to have a problem getting their rookies into their rotation. only Thibs does. He compounds the problem by continuing to keep his starters in games where the result is not in question. Again, on Saturday night, KAT gets hurt with a minute thirty left in the game when he should have been on the bench, especially after tough back to back games. I've tried to mellow on Thibs coaching decisions over the years, but his lack of flexibility when it comes to substitutions, drives me crazy! Bridges & Hart are #1 & #2 in minutes played in the entire NBA (OG is 7th). When the Knicks are winning, it's easy to overlook Thib's shortcomings, but this weekend, they were on full display! And, there's no easy answer, as the adage "you can't teach an old dog new tricks!" is certainly applicable when it comes to Thibs!
This is fine, but why don't rookies play? It is not like they miraculously get better on the bench. Against "bad" teams is the time to work them in. Kolek is the only one merits playing time, he tears up the G league when he plays. Dadiet is not good or not ready or both and needs to play in the G league every night. Even there he seems to disappear. We mortgaged our future so there is no option elsewhere. I still think Tibs need some flexibility. Being careful after the injury is a bit silly when he lacks any caution in the game.
That's the thing re: Dadiet...if the window is 2 or 3 yrs with this bunch with limited roster flexibility, then maybe a higher floor lower ceiling wing like Ryan Dunn or Jaylen Wells (whi had more college experience)should have been then move rather than a project like Dadiet.
The 2nd round (and late first rookies) who earned Thibs' trust were all guys who played multiple yrs in college (Grimes, IQ, Deuce...Dadiet seems more in the line of Reddish, where at least immediately, he's not Thibs' type of guy
Excellent
To echo everyone else's sentiments, at this point you have to figure out a way to get more run for Kolek who not only looks like he can handle it but also appears to be a Thibs type of guy. And while I know Macri gave him a star for the Bulls game, I'm at the stage where I don't want Cam Payne seeing meaningful minutes. He seems like a great teammate and cheerleader but he absolutely is not the right fit for this team, especially in that important of a role. He takes way too many plays off on defense, he is a certified chucker (even if shots do sometimes go in) and he's in his early 30's. He is what he is at this point and that's a 9th/10th man at best. I honestly think with Kolek you get a way higher floor than Payne and potentially a higher ceiling long term.
Might not be far to zero in on this one guy but for all the ways this team is constructed and what we know this coach looks for and this front office likes i just can't understand how Cam Payne has such a big role - he is the exact wrong type of player for this squad.
I’m simply can’t believe the #ForeThibs crowd is emboldened by two losses. Thought we covered this last year. This is how the guy coaches. It is inextricably tied to who is our HC and we can’t line item veto elements of his style we don’t like.
The upcoming stretch of 11 back-to-back games, as Macri and KFS pointed out, will be a defining test for this team. The second game of each set will push our legs, depth, and conditioning to the brink. Josh Hart has shown what’s possible with his relentless fitness—his Peloton FTP level is no joke—but not everyone is there yet. Heck I can only crack 1/3 of Josh's levels. This is where the delicate ecosystem of starters, bench development, practice time, and conditioning all come into play.
Right now, we’re walking a tightrope. The starters are logging heavy minutes, sometimes skipping practices to manage their workload at Thibs' behest unlike other coaches. That leaves the bench with fewer reps, and with only Deuce as a reliable bench scorer, the rotation feels thin. The problem compounds itself—starters get overburdened, bench players don’t develop enough, and the cycle repeats.
Depth is the key to breaking this cycle. If we could add at least one more 10+ ppg bench player—whether it’s Payne, Kolek, Shamet, or Precious—we’d lighten the starters’ load and stay competitive against teams like OKC, Cavs, or Boston, who thrive on depth. But this is easier said than done. The front office has limited assets to make a move mid-season, and development takes time.
The trade deadline, though, brings excitement. Brock Aller and Leon Rose have proven they can find value where others can’t. Whether it’s small trades, finding undervalued players, or waiting until the off-season to maximize picks, there’s hope for improving this roster. Thibs, too, will have a role in keeping players fresh and ready, ensuring we manage this delicate balance as best as possible.
This stretch will show how resilient and adaptable this team is. The system isn’t perfect, but the potential is huge. With a bit more depth and conditioning, we could turn this grind into a springboard for bigger things.
In Leon, Brock, and Thibs, we trust or must learn to trust.
Late-night travel between OKC and Chicago didn't help.
The latest cap pod with Jeremy was both great and depressing 😂 To do all that work and end up on Alec Burks? Good reminder that the fireworks that have marked the past year or so are over with - for at least the next year, it's very likely going to be about margin moves.
Like Jon, I think they wind up with Nick Richards, dealing Mitch in a separate deal or over the summer. This FO has given no fucks before about creating an awkward situation if they felt it would benefit winning - and I could see them at least doing that here with Richards, who they've liked and been linked to for well over a year.
If they deal Precious and a second or two for Richards AND find a separate deal for Mitch, they'd be wise to make sure whoever they acquire can play alongside Kolek and Deuce long-term. In other words, wing help, please!
Seems like it’s always the same 5ish people in here who always seem to know better than the coach, GM, and players. Just an observation on my part.
Why in gods name would you not empty the bench.....It would drive me crazy when Van Gundy would leave Ewing in with Knicks up 15 and minutes to play....You only have so many miles on those knees....smh